EP 90

Christi Rose: Welcome to the Smiling at the Future podcast. My name is Christi Rose and this is my pursuit to glean practical wisdom on femininity, homemaking, finances, relationships and singleness from the God-fearing men and women in my life. Hope you enjoy this journey with me as we learn to smile at the future.

Hello ladies, we are back from Spring Break and ready to highlight another principle listed in Titus 2 which is spiritual mothering. This passage is rich with what God’s priorities are for being a woman that pleases him. So it is our delight to camp in this passage and gain a better understanding of how we can walk in obedience and develop the character that God has called us to as women.

Dawn Harcus is my guest today, and she is a true role model in this practice of spiritual mothering. She and her husband Tom, regularly have college students and young adults live with them so that they can pour into their lives in this deep way. I know you’ll enjoy hearing her heart on this, so here is my conversation with Dawn Harcus.

Welcome back on the Smiling At the Future podcast. My longtime friend Dawn Harcus. The listeners may remember you from the first episode. You did way back on episode 19, and we were talking about femininity in a feminist world. And then again, you and your husband Tom came on on episode 69 and you talked about evangelism and how you and Tom just make that a habit of your life. And I’m excited for today’s topic as well because I know this is a passion of yours. But before we dive into all of that, would you give a brief introduction for the listeners today?

Dawn Harcus: I sure will. Thank you so much, Christi. This is such a privilege. I’m very excited to delve into this subject with you and I see just shared my testimony actually the women’s retreat and ministry journey. So it was just wonderful to look back and see the faithfulness of God in my life. But by God’s grace I was saved around 14. That’s when I really knew that I wanted to live for the Lord and throughout my life just had a real desire to be part of ministry, wanted to marry a pastor and or maybe be a missionary. I didn’t really know what that looked like. And by God’s grace, Tom brought a businessman who was starting to pursue seminary. And so we married, met and married. And as the Lord would have it, he ended up in ministry. So we’ve been in vocational ministry for I think 40 years. Yeah, we’ve been married 38, so together but even before that, even dating and engagement. So we’ve started planting churches back in 92, the first Crossway in Fort Collins area, then subsequent went to Wilmington plant to another church in not Delaware, but North Carolina. A lot of people think that. And then we were in the Chicago area for six years and then back to now. We’re going to be planting a church in San Diego in June, so we think this might be our last one, just age wise. But I’m very excited to see how the Lord will use us. I love, as we talked about the last episode, I love being with lost people. It’s messy, but I love being able to share about what the Lord’s done in me. So that has resulted in I teach at some different gyms for that reason. I love pickleball for that reason. Hiking all these different things have allowed for those relationships and currently we serve at the bridge in the San Fernando Valley, but we met and married at Grace Community. So just have a lot of appreciation for both of those churches.

Christi Rose: You also have been a spiritual mother to many women over the years and it was interesting you and I were hiking recently. We both enjoy that and so it’s fun to be able to do that and fellowship at the same time. And I had been thinking through and praying through this topic that we’re going to be covering today on spiritual mothering and discipleship, just as I’ve been going through Titus Two and we’ve been doing episodes on the principles in that passage. So whenever I’m studying and and working on a topic for the podcast, I’m always praying for the just the right person to come on and to speak to it. And I always pray that it’s someone who is passionate about that specific topic and really can share from their heart. So when it came up in our hike you were you said I love that topic and that’s something that you enjoy studying and teaching on. And so I thought that was really special of the Lord to bring that providential person and topic together today. So but before we dive into talking about the spiritual mothering command in Titus Two, I would like to read that passage again just so it’s fresh on our minds as we start studying it. So this is Titus, chapter 2, verses 3 through five. “Older women likewise, are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine. Teaching what is good so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands so that the word of God will not be dishonored.”

And so all of the principles. We’ve made it through three of those principles in previous episodes, but the umbrella over them is that these are things that we need to be taught by an older woman how to do, which I think is just fascinating. That the Lord, not only has He given us His word, we have the Holy Spirit, but then He also adds in this human element that we need training and we need to be taught how to do these things. So I would love to hear your thoughts on why does God include this human element in our sanctification and growth.

Dawn Harcus: Yes, great question. I as I looked at first Thessalonians 2, one through 8 has become a really dear passage to me. I mean all those scriptures, it’s great, but I think in terms of really being in each other’s lives, there’s just such a difference of when you get to be up close and personal with someone, not only the spiritual mother to the daughter, but you know the other way around too, that we can really know one another. And so as a as a older woman, I can be praying for those different areas that she’s concerned about. I can bear that with her, bear those burdens with her and just that life on life. And I think Jesus is such an incredible model of that, you know as he did life with his disciples, you don’t you do see him teaching them. So they’re of course the word is so important. We know we need that. But that life on life of allowing them to watch him how he interacted with people, how he was, he would go off and pray before important decisions or all those different things. There’s so much that’s shown that’s, you know, yes, you know more the whole the old saying more is caught than taught kind of thing that so much of our words. And I was just with another friend of mine who’s also very committed to this. And she said, you know, as I’ve met with women, it’s not so much the things that I said, even this Bible studies that we had, as wonderful as those aren’t and important as they are. But she said what they share with me is I it was so good for me to be around you and watch you with your children or watch you respond to your husband maybe when you didn’t agree or you know, all of those things. And yes, we’re imperfect, so that human element can feel kind of scary to to be vulnerable that way. But even in the good, bad and the ugly, it’s it’s all important. And I’ll never forget with your mom. Your mom was such a outside of my mom, my biological mom, your mom was probably my key mentor in my life. And one thing that we had a discussion about at one point is initially, you know, she upheld this view of marriage and and parenting and was so positive and really shared the upsides of everything. And I I used to leave her place not every time, but often times crying because I felt like, man, am I just so messed up that I can’t do these things and I can’t be. And granted, she was older, so she had all those years to practice. But I remember sharing that with her one time and she said years later she said that really impacted me because I always wanted to give you such a high view of these areas that I wasn’t vulnerable myself as to, you know, in time and you know, wisely to really allow you to see how I was processing through things. And so she said that changed her discipleship towards others just to be real.

But in First Thessalonians 2 verse 8 says, “having so fond and affection for you, we were well pleased.” I love that word, “to impart to you not only the gospel of God but also our own lives because you had become very dear to us.” So it’s this mixture of seeing them come to faith, but then imparting our own lives. So that human element is so critical to see, you know, what does it look like to follow Jesus? It it’s not always, you know, there’s lots of confession, right? Because we know we’re not perfect. And I think of all the passages like Philippians 3:17 and 1st Corinthians 11:1 talk about follow me as I follow Christ. So how do you follow someone? You got to see them. You got they got to be up close to you and personal. So I I believe that’s why that human element is so, so critical. So how do we do this? It’s about, you know, what does this look like?

Christi Rose: Yeah, and you know, I think about just even in our own schooling. Or you think of a nurse who is studying how to administer an IV and she’s reading about it in a textbook. But it’s a totally different type of learning when the rubber hits the road and you actually have to do this thing. And I think of that too with just life. There’s so much we know in our head. But then when you apply it in a real life context, when you apply biblical principles, sometimes we’re a little unsure of how does this look, What does this sound like? And so having a real life person that you can who is modeling those things. And older women, if they’ve been in the Word and they’ve been through some different seasons of life, they know how to apply God’s word to the issues of life and can model that for the younger woman who is still learning those things. So older women in that passage are called, to be specific things in their character in order to be a woman worth patterning your life after. And the younger woman in turn also has to be receptive and have a certain attitude in order to be receiving that and growing from a discipleship relationship. So could you speak to the both of those? Not only what the older woman is called to be, but also what the younger woman should be in order to benefit from that relationship?

Dawn Harcus: Yes, and I have really enjoyed taking each of these qualities. And I and I encourage anyone listening to because at some point you’ll be an older woman even and I know there’s been discrepancy with even the older, younger What does that mean? You know you could be very easily older spiritually I’ve heard that where maybe it’s someone your same age but you’ve known the Lord longer and have walked with him longer And then to just take another gal kind of journey with her and OK, let’s this is what child rearing looks like or this is what this looks like. But so to to really pray and study you know what these different qualities mean. I think is is so there’s so many Bible studies out there. But as far as the older woman, I would say the reverent behavior is just a really in her honoring of the Lord like that. There’s a as you look at her life, you see Jesus. I think that’s probably to distill it down. You see a maybe a joy a a peace. There’s a not that she doesn’t have her moments like we all do. None of us have arrived. I think we need to kind of set that out there that we all have a ways to go and praise God that he has begun the work in US and he said he’ll complete us. So we know we’re in the completing end, but we’ll never be perfect. And so I think I would say progressively as time goes on, you’ll see this this honoring of the Lord you maybe it’s going to him in prayer more regularly. You’re, you know you can’t handle it yourself. And I’ve seen that in my own life where maybe it younger, it’s like I had the energy and I could you know maybe feel like pick up myself up by my bootstraps and I could do it, you know, in this independence. But the longer you walk with the Lord, the more you know your frame, you know your imperfect and very dependent on the Lord. And if he doesn’t show up, we’re toast. You know, I mean, it’s really just to be quite frank. And so that reverence shows in that priority of prayer, you know, immersing yourself in the word, being around believers. I think it just there’s a an honoring with your words. You’re careful how you speak to your husband and you’re quick to confess when you’ve treated him like an equal. I don’t mean he is equal, but you know what I’m saying? Just like as as first Peter 3 talks about he’s supposed to be a Lord with a small L, my husband and I tease about that You’re my Lord, but you’re it’s a small L, you know, but Jesus is the Lord. But but just there’s an honoring and I think it affects how you communicate with your words. And then oh, she’s looking here at the next quality. So let’s see not malicious gospels this. So this really focuses on words. You’re careful how you speak about others. You’re not just flippant with your words. You really carefully so much of proverbs talks about you know, really thinking through you know is this a timely word? Is this a, an encouraging word. Is this a wise word. You know so much about words that if that’s a struggle, I I read a book once that was titled Keep Your Mouth Shut. It’s it’s really good on words. I mean just of course it’s our thinking too, which comes out in our words. So there’s aspect of right thinking but really being maybe that’s you maybe you are whatever you think you say. I know my mother-in-law is from Boston and that they pride themselves in speaking their mind. You know, I remember her saying that. And it’s like that’s not always good. Well, you know, but and then there’s And then the next quality is not enslaved to much wine. And I know many have said, well, I don’t drink, that’s really not an issue. But what are you enslaved to? Are there other areas that that you’re basically having? You’re serving two gods. You know you are, whether it’s, you know, certain ROM coms or you’re trying to think of other things, maybe working social media, working out. I mean everything can turn to become a God if we let it. And so some of those good things can actually be something we’re enslaved to it. It the motivation changes. You just want to look a certain way and that’s why you’re working out versus I want to be you know able to serve the Lord as long as He’ll have me because of you know maybe just trying to be in shape that way and then teaching what is good that you know the word. You know it’s you know where wisdom is found and you are really asking the Lord for you know whatever comes out of your mouth is going to be honoring to him. And I love Philippians 4:8. I think every woman should memorize that verse But just thinking what on what is true and right and lovely and that’s all found in his scripture. So if you’re hesitant you know we always know we can pray. And then I love this word encourage that comes in that next verse verse four, that they, the older women may encourage and it means to school or train or to bring them to their senses. So sometimes as I remember being a young mom or you know single or whatever and just everything in my life seems so major. You know, it’s like this boy, just, you know this and you know everything is. And as you grow in the Lord and you know him longer, you see his sovereignty, you see that he’s in control. You don’t have to be so frazzled about everything that enters your life. And so I think there’s a an onus on the part of the young, older women that we have a chance to say, you know, honey, it’s going to be OK. The Lord is on his throne. He hasn’t left it. And you know, let me pray that you, you know, you’ll have that peace that passes surpasses all understanding.

Christi Rose: Now with this type of spiritual mentoring modeling, what is your idea of where is this best done? You said life on life. Can you do it in groups? Can church women’s groups do this? Is it better one-on-one? Can you help us understand that?

Dawn Harcus: Well, I’m probably not going to make you feel better because I feel it’s both. I think both are it. It kind of depends on the situation. There’s some aspects of one-on-one that I love because there’s, you know, I’m really getting to know this other person. She can be more vulnerable with me about certain things that she may not feel free to share in a group. But I think there’s also a, I don’t wanna say a scary side but a a difficult side of that in that she may rely so much on that older woman. Like it’s almost like we become Jesus which is a very scary place to because we are not so you know so we fall so short and so something about something I’ve done. I’ve had one on ones but they were also very much committed to. There were other women in their life too, whether it was in the college group at Grace or. Thinking of a gal named Maria who is a new believer, I would have her over, We’d be cleaning my house. We actually cleaned my house together. I had to do it anyway. I’m like, come on, come with me. This is real life, you know? And after the vacuuming, we’d be really be able to talk but couldn’t talk over the vacuum. But I feel like in a group there’s kind of a beauty. And that as we’re together and sharing, like I may not as older women always think of, you know, maybe a application for her or a, you know, a solution for her. Or that one might be gifted in a different way, maybe gifted more in mercy than I am or faith where she says, you know, we really should pray about that together. And so that’s a beauty of and it’s kind of the church when you think of it. It’s which I know my husband had a long chain of discipleship when he was at Purdue. He had a lot of guys as he would put under his chain and then they were discipling other guys which is the goal. But one thing he said about that is he said I if they only knew how fragile I was in my walk with God but and they were dependent on me. They were looking to me as an example. And he said I when I came to Grace community for the first time, he said it was like it was like this greenhouse effect where I didn’t have to be spiritual. Big Brother, big sister, you know, mom, dad, everything to this person. But I could benefit from all these other examples. And you know in a greenhouse you need the water, you need the sun, you need the the nutrients and the soil. You know all the different, the peat, you know whatever you need if you’re into gardening. And so that that church provided that that body, provided that you can learn from others, yet one-on-one can afford personal accountability. We need the body. One person will not display all the gifts. So I think just to sum it up, so it kind of depends on the situation honestly.

Christi Rose: Yeah, yeah, really. I loved your points there, Dawn and I think because we have the tendency to idolize people so quickly. And then if you start to idolize someone and then you’re very possessive of them and it just ruins a relationship. And you have to realize there’s no one person, whether it’s a spiritual mentor or a relationship with, you know, a boyfriend or husband, that will completely satisfy your desires and longings. And so have to find that in the Lord and just see these relationships as they are meant to be, an enriching of each other’s lives and directing towards the Lord. We’re both moving towards our great greatest love, which is the Lord. Someone in a mentoring relationship is obviously further down that path. So they’re encouraging you to keep going and moving towards the Lord. But yeah I think that’s the temptation is we can so quickly idolize latch on possess to a person and then that ruins the design that God has created that relationship to be and then you know you’re following a a person rather than the Lord. And I mean Paul did say follow me as I follow Christ but but Christ is the main the main person in view. So with instigating that relationship then is do does the younger woman wait for an older woman to approach her? Like what’s the what is the most natural way to go about that?

Dawn Harcus: Well, I would say if you’re a younger woman, life’s too short and too precious. I just go for it. I wouldn’t wait for someone to come to you. But ideally the older woman would be initiating. But that’s not always the case. And we’ll talk about obstacles later, because I’ve heard some older women say some of these, but the younger woman may not see that she has a need. So there’s that. So you you kind of have both. I think both Initiating is just the way I think is best and I think there’s and I want to get ahead of myself into obstacles, but I think there’s reasons why the older women hesitate and then likewise with the younger. So we’ll we’ll kind of delve into, I don’t know if this is a good time to delve right into that. Maybe that’s kind of fits with what we’re talking about. But I think one of the obstacles I’ve heard from older women is I don’t know the Bible very well. So they feel like, and they may have been churched all their life and been been under John MacArthur’s teaching like, it’s like, are you serious? I really am always baffled by this. But it’s that, you know, staying one step ahead. I remember your mom saying that in home schooling I’m like, what if you don’t know this science or you know you’re not? You weren’t very good in chemistry in in high school. And she said just day one step ahead of them. And I thought that’s the same with discipleship. It really brings it down. And then if you’re you still don’t feel like you’re ahead, which there’s times I’ve had younger women ask me things, I’m like, let me get back to you on that one, you know, which is fine. Just say we don’t know and learning together, let’s go to God’s word and see what he has to say about that. I think that’s so these are some baby steps you can take as you’re you may be that’s your obstacle is thinking about you know having that response like I will find out that answer or why don’t you find it out and then tell me you know and so you’re learning together. I mean, there’s nothing. And it shows that humility of we’re walking with Jesus too, and we are not gonna know everything. So it’s it’s one of those, I think Satan kind of tempts us in that way to think you don’t, you really don’t know it. And so but yet as I’ve discipled different people, I had one gal, Lucille, She’s a women’s director now at a church. It’s so neat. But she wasn’t the Lord’s. And boy, this gal had question after question after question. I said you should have been a lawyer. Like she was just, but it got me digging like nothing else. And I think discipleship will do that. And as she came to faith, you know, she just had that personality. That’s like, I want to know. I want to know and I want to know it all right now. And OK, well, I’m going to be learning it all right now too. The second one, I think, and if you want to comment, just stop me. But I don’t have anything to offer. I had a wonderful godly woman say that to me as I approached her about how come you don’t, you know, spend time with, you know, in discipleship and reaching out. I mean, she had the fruit of the spirit in so many, you know, wonderful ways, very self controlled and joyful. So I would just say no one’s arrived. Like, you know, it’s the good, bad, the ugly. And just taking stock of your life and looking at, you know, the things that you did fail in. What is God taught you through that. You know, maybe going back and seeing that even though it’s kind of like Joseph, you know you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. It’s like those things, How can those be redeemed? But they can, you know, all of it. So sharing those lessons from those awful decisions that you made and the ramifications of those and I think learning to be genuine, just learning, you know, just with wisdom. There’s a time and a place to open up about different things and it depends on the relationship. But learn to be real. Learn to not think. Everything has to be rose colored. It’s it’s not life is messy and so to be able to say you know I really blew it with my husband and I had to ask his forgiveness today those kind of things are gonna really not only instill kind of A and a younger woman like oh I’m I’m you know not that we want to make them feel better about themselves in their sin but just that you’re in the journey too and the Lord is is so well and able to use everything you’ve been through. Every temptation that you have you know how you’re you’re bent all of that I’ve just seen that through the years there’s six of them so the third one is I cannot relate I have felt this way with younger women because I don’t understand the music I don’t understand especially if they’re coming out of the world like I don’t understand you know for a while there I thought LOL meant last. You know, what was it, little lady? Instead of laughing out loud, you know, and and instead of like being like, I don’t really know what you’re talking about. I mean, that happened with even moms that ’cause I have a younger daughter that were just 10, 20 years younger than me, I didn’t even know what they were talking about, you know? So there’s more in common than you realize. There’s a lot more that you all do every day. You know, eating, cooking, you know, organizing your time, working whatever it is, you know, cleaning your house, so learning to ask questions. Just be a good question asker. I’ve actually used now I like this Talking Point game, but there’s another one my niece showed me. She’s around 30. It’s called We are Not Really Strangers and it’s just a really great. It has all the way from someone you just met to someone that you’ve known for a long time. So if you’re not very good with questions, just find someone that is and you could learn from them. My husband’s amazing. He’s taught me a lot and then some some game like that. That’s really fun. It’s a fun way to to learn about each other. The 4th one is I’m an introvert, as you can tell I am not, but I have dear friends that are and maybe it’s going with someone else. I have a a new friend. Well Sue Susan is one of the leaders wives at our church and she had asked me at one point where I I invited her into my pickleball group. Now this is what unsafe. So it’s a little bit different than what we’re talking about but it has some similar similarities in that I I I mean I’m not perfect at reaching out to non believers. Please don’t misunderstand. But I do enjoy, and I do know it’s messy. And sometimes what they talk about is really challenging. And that could happen with, you know, brand new believers. They’re just coming out of the world and sometimes they say things and you’re like, oh, I don’t even know how to process that. But she just said it’s really fun to kind of watch you because you don’t seem to get riled about what they say. And you can kind of joke about like, oh, you guys, we don’t need to talk about that or something like you’re not putting them down, but it’s but you’re setting parameters to what’s right and good and and godly. So you’re doing life together. You’re learning again, learning to ask questions. And I thought of this gal named Carol. This is such a fun story, real quick. So she’s an extreme introvert, will not look you in the eyes kind of person. I love her and she now has I think 8 children, 8 or 9. But anyway, when she was a college student, she knew the Lord. She was part of our college ministry in Chicago. And there were these three, we called them the three Ms. Mariola, Madeline and Michelle. They were complete spazzes. They were all over the place. Not the Lords yet, but they all three came to the Lord and it was all due to Carol saying I’ll follow them up. She didn’t even look up when she said it. Her head was down but she but she was like a mother hen. She faithfully met with them, did life with them, and I just think it’s such a beautiful example of it doesn’t matter if you’re introvert or extrovert, we just do life with each other, pull them into grocery shopping with you as a young woman. Maybe you’re needing help. Like I remember when I was newly married, I knew kind of how to sew, but my my another woman knew really how to, so she helped me make curtains. And so it could be anything or cooking we talked about earlier. So just doing doing life together.

Christi Rose: Did you want to comment? Just saying, yeah, if you are extreme introvert, then sitting across the table is probably harder for you. So then like doing an activity, going on a walk together is just more relaxing and natural. Like finding ways where you’re more comfortable to talk and you don’t feel like you’re put on the spot and you know someone is, you know, staring you down. But you can be creative and knowing your propensities and what’s helpful for you and how you can best minister to that other person. But yeah, I think Satan will use a lot of these excuses so that we we won’t obey this command. And it’s a command like God told us to do this. It’s not optional. He he told us to obey. So if we are willing to step out in faith and be obedient, God will give you the strength and the wisdom to know how to fulfill that. But don’t let those excuses hold you back from from obeying this.

Dawn Harcus: So it’s just two more. I’ll be quick. Their issues are beyond my capabilities. That might be something. Maybe they have suicidal, maybe there’s abuse, you know, who knows what the situation is. But praise God, we are part of a body. We have leadership. We have other people that can journey with us. We can take them to we know Jesus knows it all. So taking that to prayer with them but pulling other like as a older woman I’ve pulled other women in my life that maybe have some other gifting that way. So I’m not you know I I I just don’t know what to do in some of those situations. So benefiting from the leaders and other women around you is so great. And the last one we kind of alluded to it already but it’s. I don’t have time. I am so busy with my own life I don’t even know how to I can barely keep track of my children. Some women might say, and the younger will say, well, I work full time, I I’m so tired at night, I but there’s a lot of things we do that if you just think of pulling someone else to do it with you, yes, it may take a little longer. Yes, it may be a slightly inconvenient ’cause you might have to pick them up or meet somewhere. But I I I laugh, ’cause I have one friend that’s that’s like Costco ministry. She just takes people with her. I mean, it could be any of that, you know, that’s just things you have to do already. And I think serving is such a great way to get to know people. I’ve gotten to know more younger women, older women doing that serving together. It’s just it’s accomplishes a lot of things all at once. You know so.

Christi Rose: You know, I thought of a few as well. A few hindrances to obeying that command, and just selfishness too, is a baseline. We’re selfish with our time, with our resources, so we can only think of our self instead of having eyes for other people and how to put their needs above our own. I mean, our goal is that they would be able to glorify Christ better with their life. So how can you help them to do that?

Dawn Harcus: Well, just on that selfish one, I was thinking how even a baby step might be just when you’re in a setting where this has happened many times, where I might maybe enter a room with let’s say it’s a women’s Bible study or women’s event or something like that. And how much more comfortable it would be for me to go sit with my friends for the people that I know really well. But instead having eyes like you said, putting me others needs above your own like Lord even praying, who would you have me just encouraged today? Maybe it’s just a small like maybe somebody just needs a hug or they need a smile or something or just need me to say, oh I don’t, I don’t think I’ve met you. And I know for an introvert that’s like you know they’re they’re already freaking out. But that’s it doesn’t have to be like you have this lengthy conversation with them necessarily. But you’re just, you’re just starting to see people. You’re starting to, you know, look around and not just be comfortable. So that could be a baby step.

Christi Rose: That’s a great baby step. So one unique thing about our society right now, the time we live in, is because of the Internet. So many women are flocking to online influencers as their main disciplers, and maybe they’re not intentionally thinking about them as being their mentor and discipler, But because of how God has designed us to change into what we look at and spend time with, it just naturally happens. And so we are being discipled by online content and even, you know, this podcast maybe fit into that category. So there’s benefits to these resources, but they’re supplemental. They’re not in place of a real person, so can you maybe speak to that? What are what things should you be cautious about with just going to online resources and why it’s best to have a real person discipler in your life?

Dawn Harcus: I sure can. I was thinking about this question and it’s it. It is pretty amazing that we can Google anything we can read books about, maybe learning how to manage our home and all those different things. And Mike you said listen to podcasts for information and we can learn a lot of important ideas but the power of seeing someone up close living out their faith will just have life altering results. You know I I think the think of the women and who have mentored me or who I I have mentored hopefully they’ve been their lives have been altered but I know mine has to different women that as I was maybe a new new wife like thinking about your mom and different things she taught me but I also saw it. I think there’s that whole idea of show tell watch that’s so critical of yes you’re telling them but you’re showing them is is just so much and as we said earlier more is caught than taught which I think is is so true. I know it’s not a biblical principle, but in the sense it is in this Titus Two that it’s women up close. To see how they relate to others in their lives, how they handle situations, how they learn from the Lord and others just makes that discipleship not about just merely gaining knowledge, but it’s practical and life oriented. It’s how we live every day, every moment. And again, that first Thessalonians 2:8 I just can’t get away from this verse. I think it might be my life verse now, but. “Having so fond affection for you, we were well pleased to impart to you not only the gospel of God, but also our lives, our own lives, because you had become very dear to us.” And so it’s this, you know, idea of, you know, a scripture knowing His word. But then how do they live it? What’s their that, really, that testimony to others, not just unsaved, but saved for sure. And then I I think of the I want to actually emphasize too if you are an older woman or you have young children and you’re you’re seeking to disciple others younger than you. I think it’s so important that we start with our children that we make sure they aren’t lost in the shuffle. But there are primary you have disciples, disciples right there in your home. And so the importance of me pouring into Erica and the importance of, you know, just being example, and that’s very revealing because they see everything. They see you all the time, tired and joyful and you know, all of it. And I think of an example of a gal in our current church. She’s the youth pastor’s wife and just I invited her to be part of my time at the Y and I know this is more about the loss but it all it’s part of the discipleship process is seeing people come to to faith. But she and she’s a wonderful conversation so approachable very loving. Knows the word really well. But she said I I struggle with knowing what that relationship looks like. Like can so can I just watch you, You know. So I pulled her into my life with so she’s kind of become like somebody I’m pouring into and I’ve just really I’ve learned a lot from her. Which is another aspect of discipleship that’s so beautiful is I’m not gonna know everything and I love hearing the insights and the word that they have and but that power of true transformation obviously founded in the scriptures first beginning with the mind but then having someone that you’ve been invited into a relationship just like Jesus did that with me. I think of the with me with quotes you know it’s a with me kind of life doing things together for them to see how you take that scripture and then live it. It’s just so powerful. So I don’t know if there’s other thoughts you have in that regard but I just. I just think it’s and even this Titus Two it’s. So if you think about some of these areas it appears as up close you don’t see this distant like let me give you a class or which is fine there’s nothing wrong with that. But I think of one woman that I used to meet with. I love this woman dearly and she was very wise and taught me a lot. But I was never invited to her home and I’m not faulting her for that. That may be her comfort level, but I remember sitting across the table, she gave me a notebook and she had a notebook and she was going through material with me. And obviously we know answers are in the word that’s, you know, that’s where we go that’s. And I think she was modeling that to me that this is, you know, as I disciple you, this is what you need to know. But oh, I so long to see her in her home and see her up close. So that information is great, but to have that real life picture. Is. Is so helpful. And Jesus did that. So what a great model, right?

Christi Rose: Exactly. It makes me think of not just being a hearer of the word, but a doer. And then we can watch someone who’s doing it and what it looks like, ’cause I think there is a temptation, especially in well taught churches, to have a very heavy emphasis on doctrine. And we all know that doctrine is a whole the the foundation for this. But the second aspect is practice. And so those have to be wedded together. Otherwise it just is going to be knowledge that puffs up and you’re not going to be a doer of the word, you’re just going to be a here with a lot of head knowledge but no understanding of application of that. And ultimately, we know that in Titus and in this passage, we live this way because we want to adorn the gospel. It is supposed to attract people to the Lord. By our lives. We’re letting our light shine. We’re living differently than the world. And so our goal is to obey the Lord. But secondarily, it is evangelistic. We are adorning the gospel by our lives, by our works, by our. And other people are seeing that. Yeah, a few other. I’m just gonna jump back to the question, ’cause I had some, just some thoughts on some of the pitfalls of just following an online influencer. One thing they have very curated life, you know, content. So you’re seeing what they want you to see. And like you said, when you do a life on life relationship, you get to see the good, bad and the ugly. You have opportunities for asking for forgiveness, for demonstrating humility. And so I think you don’t. You miss some of that in just following someone through the Internet. They also can’t speak to your unique set of circumstances. You know that Titus too. It says the older women are to teach the younger woman how to love their husbands and how to love their children. And I just think not everyone is a cookie cutter. You know, love is gonna look different for different people. And so, like, you know you can. You need to have someone who knows you, knows your relationships to help you understand how to love those people that God has in your life. And then of course, the accountability of it all, like an online influencer is not going to hold you accountable and help you to grow and change. And that is a huge piece of the sanctification puzzle that we need someone to keep us accountable, to live the way God wants us to live. So and that’s again why he gave us a body and the church is for us to life on life, encourage and build up each other with our unique gifts. I don’t know if you have any thoughts on that, but.

Dawn Harcus: No, I think you summed it up really well. You’re so right. It’s personal up close and personal, isn’t it? Which is now it’s comfortable. They may prefer to hear from online, ’cause it’s like, you know, they may save this area. It’s easy, it’s accessible, but it’s worth doing the diligent effort in initiating these real life relationships.

Christi Rose: And I think just as we close out, the thing that I have to remind myself of when I’m lacking confidence to obey this command is just recognizing that it’s the Lord who’s going to work through you to impact this other person. It’s not just you. You’re not relying on your own strength. You have the Holy Spirit in you. It’s two of you working, and he’ll give you the wisdom as you’re staying close to the vine abiding in Him. So I don’t know if you want to share any more on that point, but that just helps me, gives me the courage to do this.

Dawn Harcus: Yeah, no, that’s so true. And I think just in closing, I was thinking about how you already have not only his word, but you actually have a set curriculum for them, like to go through Titus 2 with them, you know, is is just what that how the Lord has worked in your life or is working in your life. I mean, worked sounds like we’re perfect, but he’s working in our lives, but we’re just a little further down the Pike. And so to be able to use that as a curriculum of, like, what does that look like? As you know, you’re seeking to be pure, What does that mean for you? And boy, that accountability there is ’cause. I find, especially in that purity area, I’ve had more women come to me and say that they struggle with pornography. And if that’s you out there, there’s no shame. It’s not a men’s issue anymore. It’s like there’s 40% of women struggle with pornography because of the Internet now and just the accessibility. And so to be able to be with someone that can pray for you and help you, you know, kind of just get out of that pit and not have that shame cause the enemy would love to just oh, that’s you. You’re just you’re defined by that and that’s your identity. No. Your identity is in Christ and he has victory over that. So, and I think part of discipleship, which I know this verse is very common to most of us. But I think this go there for Matthew 28 and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. And I love this next part verse 20 it says “teaching them to observe all that I commanded you.” Another word for observe is to obey. And so to have someone that can, you know, journey with you to help you obey the Lord you know is so powerful and encouraging along the way ’cause we’re gonna fall short so just that that teaching by their life one-on-one or in a group. But and I do wanna add too, there is a there’s an element of humility that needs to be I I remember we used to use this alliteration which is such a terrible iteration now but it’s F A T as a young woman. Are you faithful, F I? Need to change it. A Are you available, but you’ll remember it. And T are you teachable? So the the gals that I’ve as time went on that I sought to disciple were that like they were willing to make the time. They showed a faithfulness. They were teachable. They, you know, wasn’t like, well, I already know that that’s a that’s a pitfall being a a young woman. I remember we used to say with young guys it’s like the young man syndrome. Like I know everything. And when they’re about 30, they go, oh, dad is so smart. How did he get so smart, you know? And it’s like, no, no, no, He’s been the same but you, you know, and I remember being that way too, but yet really trying to like, Lord help me to be teachable, ’cause maybe that pride is just gonna rise up. And and especially with online things, I’ve seen that with young women where it’s like, well, I already know that. Well, do you really, have you seen it? You know, and not not, I would never say that to them, but I I, you know, just tried to walk with them and and show them that it’s really different when you see it up close. And so I think to avoid those pitfalls, we all need to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God. Like we we don’t know everything. None of us do. And so to be able to be humble, to learn from one another as older woman towards a young woman, there’s that many things that young woman is going to teach you, you know, many good questions. She’ll bring that, oh, that’s that’s revealing for me as an older woman or reminding me of what I need to commit my life to. So I think that’s important. But it’s the come and see. Come into my life and see the good, the bad, the ugly. I’m going to impart my life to you. It’s not going to be pretty all the time, but that’s what discipleship is so.

Christi Rose: And I I think we will always, we will simultaneously be an older woman and a younger woman, yes. Yes, absolutely so. Understanding all of these principles and how to apply them because you are older or it doesn’t necessarily mean from an age perspective, but like you brought out earlier, just spiritual maturity perspective. But knowing how to be teachable and humble in both roles as an older or younger woman. And I just have to also highlight a book here if the listeners are inspired and just want to dive in a little bit deeper. Spiritual Mothering by Susan Hunt is pretty good. So I have underlined quite a lot of it. I’ve really been encouraged by that. So I’m going to link that in the show notes. If any of the listeners want to add another book to their Amazon cart, that would be a good one to add. I don’t know, Dawn, if you have book recommendations that you would offer today.

Dawn Harcus: Yes, and I know you’ve had Chris Mueller on Let the women Be women is outstanding. It’s kind of follows along the theme of Titus Two and it was very influential in my life at A at a critical point. I would say it’s it’s so good because it’s kind of like I had shared about the younger women qualities that he delves into that even more and it’s just really good to see the things you could be doing now that you don’t have to wait. So that’s that’s a good one. And then this is a old recording. I think you can still find it. I hope you can’t. I know I found it maybe a couple of years ago but the founder of Navigators, just Dawson Trotman, had a radio show that basically it was where is your man? He’s yelling it. Where’s your woman? Who are you imparting truth to? Who are you journeying in life with? Who are you taking along with you in in this spiritual journey that you’re in? And so it just was really impactful, ’cause it’s like, who am I pouring my life into? Am I? Am I really making my life count? Or am I just going about my day and not thinking about anybody else? So it just sort of opened my eyes to to that. So I would say those two for sure, yeah.

Christi Rose: OK, I’ll. I’ll link both of those. And I think it’d be a good thing to pray about if you don’t have someone immediately coming to mind that you’re like, yes, I need to start pouring into that person and yes, I need to start. I want to pattern my life after that woman’s life. You know, pray, pray for a mentor, pray for someone you can disciple. And God, that’s his design and it’s his desire for you, for your life and how you give him glory. So he will answer those requests. But Don, you have been such an example to me even from afar. We haven’t lived in California together for many years, but just the long time friendship that you and your husband have had with my family and my parents and seeing how you are still running the race with such endurance and zeal has been a continued inspiration to me and my life of you’re still going at it strong and we can too. So appreciate all of those thoughts. They were excellent, they were encouraging, they were motivating. And I’m excited to hear how God uses this episode to inspire women to live this Titus 2 mentoring model.