Christi
Hannah, it is a delight to have you join the podcast today, and you are one of the most encouraging, optimistic people that I know. And even though we’ve only been friends for around two years or so, maybe under two years, it does feel like much longer because of the depth of conversation we tend to have each time we get together. And so many of those times, we find that we have to be more open-minded and more open-minded and more open-minded. And so I’m And that is how this topic came up. We realized we were both meditating on enduring and persevering well through different challenges that we had in our life. So we just decided, let’s talk about this together, and hopefully it’ll be a way to encourage the listeners as well. But before we dive into that topic, I would love for you to share a little about yourself with the listeners.
Hannah
Yeah. Hi, Christi. Thank you so much for having me. It is such a joy. You have been such a gem of a friend and truly a blessing to me. I am originally from Idaho. I’ve been out in California about the last two years and had the pleasure of knowing you during that time. I have my doctorate in physical therapy, which I’ve been practicing for eight years, and then got my master’s in biblical counseling. So I’m a certified counselor as well in the last two years. And I’ve been here. So when you kind of came to me about this topic, I was excited about it because it’s something I’m very passionate about. The Lord has placed me in a field where I witness deep sorrow, heartache, and great heaviness of those crying out for help. I’ve had people ask, you know, what do you say to your patient who has a terminal illness? What do you say to your patient who survived the Holocaust and has seen great horrors? What do you say to the soldier returning to the front lines the next day, not sure if it will be his last? I looked into the eyes of all these souls, and there is a desperation so deep for hope and encouragement that it pierces your heart. How do you persevere? And as you and I know, there’s only one answer for that longing soul, and it’s Jesus. So I’m so thankful to be here today just to talk with you about this topic and all that it has to go with it.
Christi
Yes, and we want to talk about as the listeners know, from what God thinks of perseverance. There’s a worldly kind of perseverance that everyone is going through challenges and going through life and persevering. But biblically speaking, can you share what is perseverance? And also, how is it different from
endurance?
Hannah
Absolutely. Yeah, this is really important. This is where the rubber meets the road. Especially practicing in medicine, I get to see the whole realm of people persevering, and I’ve come to find that your faith and your belief system is everything. You have two groups of people, those that are hopeful and those that are hopeless. And when we think about biblical perseverance, right, you look at the Bible, we know that life is hard. And the background setting how perseverance came out was because of persecutions and temptations that believers will and are facing and that we go through. So in Scripture, there’s four Greek words for perseverance, and it is defined as an action or condition of steadfastness, remaining, staying, continuing in Christ. It is one who endures even in the face of difficulty. So that’s kind of the general idea of perseverance. And what’s the difference between endurance and perseverance? Because both use each other in their definitions, as I was looking it up, it almost seems like they’re interchangeable, but I really like this definition here. And it said, endurance is the ability of the Christian, by God’s gracious enabling, to persevere through trials, temptations, and afflictions. Endurance is the physical capacity, while perseverance is the mental strength. For example, endurance is experiencing or surviving the pain. Perseverance, however, is not merely experiencing pain or hardships in life, but also going against these hardships in order to strive for excellence continuing in spite of the difficulty. the ability of the Christian to persevere. And when we think of that in a biblical way, we’re striving for excellence for Christ, and we’re pursuing on in spite of the difficulty because of who we are in Christ. Probably my favorite definition of perseverance, As believers in the Lord, we are expected to faithfully endure and to remain steadfast in the face of opposition, attack, and discouragement. How do we do this? Because perseverance is rooted in confidence in the Lord. That’s where it starts is where is your confidence? And as believers, it’s in Christ.
Christi
And that is a good reminder because when we look at our circumstances and our life, we can be very tempted to give up. And to quit and to be discouraged. But everything is in Christ. We have His hope. He is the God of all hope. So when a Christian is persevering through a trial or a challenge, what fruit is produced when we persevere the right way?
Hannah
Yeah, that is a great question, right? Because we’ve all been there. I will be the first to say, I wish I was not as much as a grumbler or a complainer. I remember I learned this lesson. Years ago with my dad, I was going through a really hard season and having a very bad attitude about it. And my dad gently confronted me saying, Hannah, you can’t always choose your circumstances or control the outcome of your circumstances. The only thing you can control is your attitude. And that depends on your perspective. What do you believe? Where does your faith and confidence lie? In that moment, I was focused on self, but as I have grown in Christ, my perspective and attitude has changed. And you see, perseverance for genuine believers looks different because we have a new life, a new perspective in Christ that changes the way we live and view persecution, trials, and temptations. If you find yourself grumbling, complaining, wanting to quit, you better ask yourself, Are you in Christ? Because that is not the way of Christ. Listen, it’s not enough to know sound doctrine, know sound theology without sound living. James 1:22-23 says, “Therefore, laying aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in gentleness receive the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. But become doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.” Genuine faith, genuine belief in God, changes the way you live, and view your circumstances, or your trials and tribulations. So how do we persevere? Scripture. There’s so many verses. I know Christi you and I have talked about this. Romans 5 is a great one. It says, “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, here’s those character traits, but we also boast in our afflictions, knowing that affliction brings about perseverance, and perseverance proven character, and proven character hope, and hope does not put to shame, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.”
Christi
I just have to highlight that James 1 passage that you quoted on the danger of being a hearer of the word and not a doer, and that would be an excellent prayer to pray, asking God, where are you not applying truth? Are you simply storing up knowledge that puffs up, or are you doing the diligent work it takes to apply that and have that change your words and your actions? And you also quoted Romans 5 and that beautiful list of qualities produced through endurance, ending with the love of God being poured out into our hearts. And that just showcases God’s grace. It’s only by His help that this is the outcome to a trial we experience instead of bitterness. So sweet of the Lord to do that in our lives through persevering through a trial.
Hannah
Yeah. Yeah, as I say, like, I just love the, because this is important, because how do you have confidence in, you know, those trials? Because you know, right, afflictions produce that perseverance, which produces so much fruit. And the greatest one, like, greater Christ-likeness. And we have to remember, suffering is associated with the development of perseverance, and Scripture teaches us the spiritual benefits of perseverance. Having a biblical perspective of suffering shifts our mind from fear to hope, right? Suffering is God’s means of perfecting us. Suffering is a means of spreading the gospel. And persevering through suffering, we see God. You don’t have to fear your trial, right? You can have hope in your trial. Not only that, but every time you go through a trial, you see the nature of your faith. In James 1:2-4, right, it says, “Consider all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith brings about perseverance, and let perseverance have its perfect work, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.” John MacArthur says about perfect, it refers to spiritual maturity. The testing of faith drives believers to… Deeper communion and greater trust in Christ. Qualities that in turn produce a stable, godly, and righteous character. That is what, when we go through a trial, that’s how we can persevere, because we know what is going to be the outcome of that trial, so to speak.
Christi
So good to be reminded of that. And we have to be reminded of that because in our flesh, our normal reaction to when we’re in a challenge… When we’re in a long trial is to despair. And so I think we need to talk about that a little bit. How do you guard your mind and your heart from ending up on the path of despair?
Hannah
Yeah, this is a great question. And I think there are three… There’s a lot of things, but three specific. One, knowing God. Two, rejoicing in hope. And three, being devoted in prayer. I’ll dive into each of those a little. But so first one, know God. Be in the Word. I remember a dear mentor of mine once said to me, Hannah, you’re going to face a lot of trials in your life, and the only question you should ever have is, what do you know about God? To answer that question, you must mine the Word of God, and your soul will always be settled. And she was right. Remember, perseverance is rooted in one’s confidence in the Lord. As believers in the Lord, we have confidence because we are secure in Him. Through Him, we have a hope that cannot fail. We have a love that cannot die. We have a power that is fixed in Christ who will hold us fast through every trial until the very end. So know God, number one. You want to stay away from despair, especially practicing medicine. You know, I’m not a doctor. I have so many patients asking all these questions, the what ifs and the whys, and they all like end in misery. And like the only question you need to know is, what do you know about God? And the more you know Him, the more your soul is settled and will stay away from despair. Number one, knowing God. Number two, rejoice in hope. Christi I actually love it. She sent me these really pretty like verses that I have in my room. And so I’ve been looking, at this Romans 12:12 for like the last month. And so it’s “rejoice in hope, persevere in tribulation, devoted to prayer.” And I was thinking about that. It’s amazing that persevere in tribulation is sandwiched between rejoice in hope and devoted to prayer. And I think that’s so important because when you’re going through a tribulation, right, no one is immune to trials, to difficult times. Discouragement will come. But we must not despair because despair is the complete absence of hope. And as believers in the Lord, we always have hope. Hope in the scriptures. It’s not the hope so that we talk about like hope my job will change, hope I’ll get married, hope I’ll have a baby, hope I’ll find a cure for my ailment. If your perseverance is rooted in those, you’re going to crash and burn hard because those don’t always end well. Scriptural hope, it is the expectation of God’s fulfillment of his promises. It is faith that assures us of the certainty of them. Faith has one eye fixed on the future, and this affects the way that the other eye views the present. And I love this example of Christ, right? If you are in Christ, there’s much to rejoice even in the trials and afflictions because you know what they will produce. Jesus was our example of this, right? Jesus knew who he was. He was the son of God. He knew his mission. He came to earth to fulfill the will of the Father, right? To die for our sins, to go to the cross that we could have eternal life. And He knew where He was going. He was returning to Father, to his Father, to sit at his right hand. And when you are new in Christ, you’re no longer dead in your flesh. You have the exact same three things, right? That no affliction, trial can touch. It doesn’t matter what circumstance I go through. I know that I am a daughter of the most high king. I know that I am going to my Lord. He’s either coming to get me first or I’m going to meet him in heaven. And I also know what my mission is, right? I am His child. I get to proclaim the gospel as his ambassador with the aim of bringing Him glory and honor. And so that’s the joy that we can focus on or the hope that we have in trials. And that one’s so, so important because so often we do, you know, when you take your eyes off Christ and you put them on the world, downhill, super fast. And so you’ve got to, I love that Isaiah 26:3-4 “the steadfast of mind, you will keep in perfect peace because he trusts in you. Trust in Yahweh forever for in Yahweh himself, we have an everlasting rock.” You got to keep your eyes on Christ and you will not fall into despair.
Christi
So, so good to be reminded of that. And that is how, when you look at Christians and how we persevere and how the world perseveres, the world is just looking for the fulfillment of the things they’re hoping in and they’re all earthly and they’re all self-centered. And then when they get that thing, they realize, well, that doesn’t fulfill and bring me the joy and the peace that I’m looking for. And so it’s the sights on the next thing. But as Christians, we receive. God’s good gifts, but we’re not looking at those as gain. And so our vision, like you said, Hannah is so much further ahead. It’s on Christ. It’s, we are fixing our minds on things above and not having that temporal short-sighted view to keep us going one step at a time, but we are following in the path that Christ has already led. He’s already shown us how to live, not only that, he lived the life we couldn’t live and it’s his power and his life lived through us now. So we can persevere because we have that hope. We know we are running from a place of victory, not of fear. So anytime you find yourself spiraling into despair, you have to check where you are setting your hope, your expectation. Your expectation has to be from the Lord and the Lord. So yeah. Thank you, Hannah, for reminding us of that.
Hannah
Yeah. Yeah. And then that third one, right? Devoted to prayer. And Corrie Ten Boom says it best. She said, “the wonderful thing about prayer is that you leave a world of not being able to do something and enter God’s realm where everything is possible. He specializes in the impossible. Nothing is too great for his almighty power. Nothing is too small for his love.” My friends, be devoted in prayer. Worrying is just a rocking chair that goes nowhere. Prayer goes straight to God who is sovereign over all. Persevering Christians take prayer seriously because they understand the nature of human weakness and divine help. So we have to go to our Lord in prayer.
Christi
Thank you. Now, there are times in life when maybe you’re not in deep, difficult trial. You’re just going through the motions of the mundane, everyday tedium. And that takes also a special kind of perseverance because we all long for excitement and for change and to have something meaningful happen each day or each year, each week. So how do we persevere through the mundane of life?
Hannah
Yeah, this is great too. Man, I’m like the staple child of this. I feel like every two years, you know, I’m like, okay, what’s the next thing? Where am I going to? You know, if like nothing’s been changing, I’m ready to mix it up. And honestly, most of life, there’s a big portion of life that is mundane, right? And I think just like the other question, where’s your perseverance lying? Is it confidence in the Lord or confidence in the world? I think that when we start getting restless because we realize we have these desires that, you know, like I want my situation to change. I want to be married. I don’t want to be in my current job situation or that. I don’t like the mundane of the nitty gritty. So when I get in those times, I have to be like, wait a second, Hannah, it’s not about you. His kingdom come, His will be done. And remember what we are persevering for, His return. Someone the other day, convicted me or called me out because I was like, I just want things to be different, change. And he was like, Hannah, what are you longing for the most? Like, is your greatest desire when you wake for Christ’s return, right? We live for Christ, live for His return. This is what we’re persevering for. Not so much that your job will change, a spouse will come, your ailment will be cured. Those may or may not happen, but Christ’s promises are fixed and He is returning. The day of the Lord will come as talked about throughout scripture. And 2 Peter 3 is a great chapter to go through there. So I think that’s what, when you’re in the mundane, when you’re in the nitty gritty, often when I’m like starting to struggle, it’s probably because I’m being selfish and, you know, focus so much on me versus like, wait a second, the Lord has put me here. The Lord has placed me in this situation. And so how can I bring Him glory with my attitude? And when I just bring my eyes back on Him, it’s amazing how quickly all those things dissipate. And then just being thankful too. My poor patients, they hear this all the time because you cannot change, like really there’s circumstances, there’s trials that come, like you can’t change it overnight and you can be in it for years. I know, just thinking about, you know, I have some patients that have terminal. And they’ve been in it for years and it’s not going anywhere. Or Ukraine, right? Like those people have been in the war day in and day out, and it’s not really an end in sight. And so how do you keep persevering when the pressure is still there? And one really good practice is cultivating a heart of thankfulness, right? Even in the mundane. One of my favorite proverbs is, “bitterness rots the bones and joy is medicine to the soul.” I tell my patients all the time, when you complain, you’re cultivating a heart of bitterness and anger, which is going to rot your bones. But when you are thankful, you’re cultivating a heart of joy, which scripture says that’s medicine to the soul. And practicing medicine for eight years, I cannot tell you how much the spiritual impacts the physical. I will give my patients homework assignments, right? Like I give them exercises, but their main, I’ll tell you, this is your main, I want you to think on three things you’re thankful for each day. I’ve never had a patient come back in more pain. They’ve always felt better. And I think, because that’s what, right? And for as believers, like we have so much to be joyful for because of who we are in Christ, because of what he’s done, because of what he’s called us out of. And so when I’m in that mundane, I got to bring my mind back to, well, what is true? And this life is just temporary. Right? It’s just passing. We’re sojourners just here today and we’ll be with our Lord soon.
Christi
Yeah. So, so helpful, all those points. And I love that you talked about thankfulness because yes, your attitude transforming that, transforming what you’re choosing to look for. If you’re constantly looking for all the negative things in your life, you are going to be hyper aware to those things. And you’re going to be storing up a list. Whereas if you’re trying to see the good and being thankful every little moment, every little blessing that God allows, then you are going to be hyper aware to those things. And it’s going to, and that aroma around your life is going to be so attractive to other people. God knows we need help with perseverance and endurance through the challenges of life. And one of the ways that he has given us provision for that is through other believers to be able to encourage each other. And there are several verses that join endurance and encouragement together. Those seem to go hand in hand. That’s one way we practice the one another’s in scripture. And so I would love to just end on that today. How can we become better encouragers to our brothers and sisters in Christ?
Hannah
Yeah, this is my favorite question because it’s so important. We’ve been talking so much about all this, and I want to make sure I didn’t come across as like, you know, perseverance is easy. It’s not. Perseverance does not mean perfection. As a human, right, I struggle with my flesh. I wrestle with doubts, especially when you’re in a trial for so long. You do start wondering, and you’re asking questions. This is where God is so kind to give the body of Christ. And I was just talking to a friend today at church, going through a difficult time, and the value of encouragement is huge, but the right kind of encouragement. I love it. It says that in Hebrews 3:13 “encourage one another day after day as long as it is still called today, so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.” How can I help someone persevere? Through encouragement. But listen to this. The type of encouragement, matters greatly. Is your encouragement focused on Christ and His way of persevering, which includes rejoicing? And working in an unbelieving world, you know, and man, like, just so many heartbreaking things that I’ve had to witness and to walk through. I’m so thankful to be a physical therapist. I walk with my patients day in, day out, sometimes for up to a year or more with the trial they’re going through. And you will hear all types of encouragements, you know, like, well, you know, tomorrow will be better or sleep it off or this pain medication will help or X, Y, Z, and none of it satisfies. None of it does. And Matthew, right, it talks about blessed is the man who hungers and thirsts for righteousness, because in that he will be satisfied. And as believers in the Lord, Christi, you asked, how can we grow in our ability to offer genuine encouragement to others? The answer is know God, know his word, follow Christ’s example. Charles Spurgeon said, “when Jesus himself sought to enrich others, he wrought in the quarry of Holy Scripture.” You know, when Satan was tempted, right? Because remember, perseverance, it’s persecutions and temptations and tribulations. So when Christ was tempted by Satan, what was he doing? He was speaking the word of God. When he was, you know, preaching to the apostles and the believers, he was speaking the word of God. And that’s what we need to do as brothers and sisters in the Lord is make sure to come around and don’t just pray for him. That’s what my friend said today. Sometimes people don’t know when you’re in a great heartache, like you don’t know what to say. It’s hard. So we just say, I’ll pray for you. But she’s like, man, I wish people would just remind me to have joy. Like, here’s how you can have joy in this trial. Right. And we know that James 1:2-4, it says, “Consider it all joy my brothers when you encounter various trials knowing that the testing of your faith brings about perseverance. And let perseverance have it’s perfect work that you may be perfect and complete lacking in nothing.” And I love, same thing, Jeremiah 9. It’s one of my favorite things about boasting.. medicine, right? People are always looking about like, who has the most power? Who has the most money? Who has the most power? When you’re in a trial, like, you know, if I just had more money, maybe I could seek this treatment and things are going to get better. And what does Jeremiah 9:23-24 say? It says, “Thus says Yahweh, let not a wise man boast in his wisdom, and let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not a rich man boast in his riches, but let Him who boasts, boast in this. That he understands and knows me. That I am Yahweh Who shows lovingkindness, justice, and righteousness on earth. For I delight in these things declares Yahweh.” As believers, like, if I’m not in the Word, I can’t go to my sister in the Lord who’s struggling and encourage her in what’s going to be most profitable and beneficial and convicting to her, right? Christ gave His life to transform your life. When you bring Christ, you bring living, eternal life. This eternal life leads to a hope that cannot fail, a faith that cannot die, right? That power that sustains because of Christ. It’s Christ one needs in order to persevere through life. That’s how you encourage those going through persevering. And you know what? It also, like, I always think about that, too, because it’s like, there’s so many trials, and you can get overwhelmed. Like, well, how do I care for someone with this or that? Or, you know, in medicine, it’s always diagnosis, treatment, outcome. And I’m like, the beautiful thing about Scripture is, like, you have these diagnoses, like, and you have a treatment. A treatment is the Word of God. The outcome is the peace of God that surpasses all understanding, that true hope that can fill and satisfy you, even if your terminal cancer is going to end in death, because it’s just a physical body anyway. Christ has promised this new body that you’re going to have someday, or whether or not you’re going to get married or you’re not going to get married, or you’re going to have children or you’re not going to have children. My hope is in Christ, and He will satisfy always.
Christi
It’s so helpful, too, to get our eyes off of ourselves in our trials when we’re looking for the needs of others. We did an episode earlier on bearing one another’s burdens. When you’re looking for burdens, looking for people to encourage, you’re not only speaking life, like you said, Hannah, the Word of God is life. You’re not speaking that to that person, but you’re also reminding your own heart of those truths about God. And so it just has such a reciprocal benefit. You’re benefiting yourself. You’re benefiting the other person. So instead of being known for complaining or bitterness, and I think we all know people who that is the theme of their conversation, complaining about everything bad in their life or all the hardships, strive instead to be known for your encouragement. Build one another up, encourage one another to love and good deeds. And when you see someone needs encouragement, you can pray about that, too. Because the Lord uses us as instruments of His love that way. And the Spirit will guide you to that person who may need that Word that is going to speak grace to them. So be praying as you’re in settings where you have the opportunity to encourage someone and ask for wisdom to know what to say and what scripture to use. But again, it all comes back to you have to know the scripture if you’re going to use it in that moment. So yes, be much in the Word, be memorizing, be meditating on the Word of God, and then it’ll be more readily available to you when you need to use it.
Hannah
And I think of, too, that practical assistance, right? You and I talked earlier about disappointment produces discouragement, which produces weak knees. I was thinking about that this week of, you know, even just through trials, or you can all think about, too, when you get sick, you know, your mind, like you’re mentally not as strong, you’re physically not as strong, and you need help. And so how can we, as believers, to really, like, you know, Christ says, like, love God and love others. Offer more. Like, we’re supposed to be the hands and feet of Jesus. Physical application. And I love that in the Old Testament, Moses, right? When there was that battle, and it was like he had to keep his hands up, right? And if his hands came down, the Israelites started to lose. But as that battle continued, his arms became weak. He couldn’t keep them up. And so Aaron and Hur came to his side and held his hands up for him. And so who is in your life right now, who you know has been going through a difficult trial, a tribulation? I think as believers, we’re really good when something, like, when it initially happens. We’re amazing to come around, to pray, to support, to bring over meals, to bring, like, care. But I have so many patients, and some of them have been years, no one comes anymore. No one asks anymore. And that can be a really lonely and hard road. And so, you know, be that Aaron, be that Hur, where they notice that person’s hands falling. They need that encouragement. And come over and offer physical aid, not just that. Like, I don’t want to say not just prayer, but can you do more? Do you have the physical means to do that? And I will add there, too, because we’re prideful human beings. So, often with my patients, it’s, there’s so much wisdom in how you ask a question or offer help. And, right, if you say, hey, do you need help? Everyone says, no, I’m good. I got it. Because we’re prideful, right? Like, it would come down to, we’re prideful. But even just, you know, telling someone, like, hey, I would love to bring a meal over this week. Does Tuesday or Wednesday work? So then you’re giving them an option, but you’re bringing a meal. So I think there’s just, yeah, wisdom in those areas as well.
Christi
Hannah, did you have any parting thoughts that you want to share just overall on this topic with the listeners as you encourage all of us to persevere?
Hannah
Yeah, I would, just as believers, take the Word of God seriously. When we’re new in Christ, like, we’re to obey the Word. We’re to follow what it says. Scripture is all about action verbs. So often, you know, we say we’re new in Christ, but we still live in our flesh. We live in our sin. Christ has put that off. And so, you know, be a believer that is known by their faith, their obedience, and holiness to God. And I’m striving after Him. I’m persevering for Him. And He will keep you to the end. He will enable you to run that race to the very end because He is God. You’re going to mess up. I think, too, I love, you know, perseverance is not perfection, right? I’m going to sin. I’m going to mess up. Be humble to be like Peter, right? I love Peter’s example. When he denied Christ, and when Christ looked at him, what did he do? He went out and wept bitterly. And I think that’s how that’s another mark of true, genuine faith is, I’m going to mess up. I’m going to make a mistake, and that’s okay. But repenting, coming back to the Lord, asking for forgiveness, who He’s already forgiven, and then continuing to press on, continuing to persevere, continuing to abide in God, abide with Him. So that would be my final remark there, so to speak.
Christi
Thank you, Hannah, for those sweet truths and reminders as we all strive in varied circumstances. Some of us are in deep, difficult, heart-wrenching trials, and some are just plodding through the daily mundane. But we all need endurance and perseverance to not become lax in our walk with the Lord, but to be pressing on, running hard. And someday we will get to that finish line, which is Christ. He is our prize. He’s the one we’re running towards. For all of eternity, we’ll be celebrating the victories and the fruit that was produced from this season of endurance. So thank you for helping us set our minds on things above and reminding us of those truths. It was a joy to have you on today.
Hannah
Thank you, Christi. A joy as well for me.