EP 96

Welcome to the Smiling at the Future podcast.
My name is Christi Rose and this is my pursuit to glean practical wisdom on femininity, homemaking, finances, relationships, and singleness from the God fearing men and women in my life. Hope you enjoy this journey with me as we learn to smile at the future.

Ladies, we have a new website that I would love to invite you to go check out. One of the great new features is the search button that will help you locate topics. So if you want to go and type in a keyword, you can see if we’ve already covered it on a previous episode. So go check it out at smiling@thefuturepodcast.com.

Today I have John and Jane Tucker back on the podcast. You may remember their names from some episodes in the past and they have been gracious enough to cover the sensitive issue of abuse, specifically sexual abuse. They are very tactful and gentle in addressing this. So our hope is that if this is something you have been through or you know someone who has walked through that painful experience, the truth from God’s Word shared in this conversation will help bring comfort and hope and enable you to smile at the future once again. So here is my conversation with John and Jane Tucker.

Well, John and Jane, it is so fun to be sitting down in person with you both because you normally reside in Canada and we are here in Southern California recording this together in the same room. And you guys have been on the podcast before. So it’s not the first time. I think this is episode 4, is it? I think. It’d be 3 or 4. 3 or 4, but it’s been a couple of years, so we’re glad to have you back. And Jane, I know I’m going to embarrass you a little bit, but you have been someone I’ve looked up to my whole life and I just, ever since I was little, just like I want to be like Jane looked up to you, not only for your grace and femininity and kindness, but your godliness and, and I still think that to this day. And just we were so thrilled when God brought John into the picture, a man who could lead you well and worthy to win your heart. And so, John, if you want to share what you all are doing in Canada and where God has you in life and ministry.

My pastor of Little Baptist Church in Kelowna, BC and just to triangulate it, that’s about six hours from Spokane, about six hours from Seattle, and I’m currently on sabbatical. The church has graciously given us six months for a break as a family. Been there 14 years. And so this is the first extended break that we’ve had. So really thankful this, we’re about 1/3 of the way into it. So thankful to be able to get away. I’m working on a book on the Lord’s Prayer, which I’m referring to as the, the model prayer, which actually really the, the seed of, of that really came during my, my doctoral work here at TMS And I graduated from here in 2018. So really excited to be able to take some time to, to work on this. Yeah. And, and to be able to refresh and recharge. Is it is as a pastor, but also as a husband and as a dad?

You have 4 kiddos.

Yeah, so we have four children, ages 2 to 10, and much of my life is tending to them. And so we’re just really thankful that the Lord has given us the season of our life. And Christi, I’m just going to respond that it’s also been a joy to watch you grow up and become someone that I admire in so many ways. And so it’s just really sweet to be together and to watch the Lord using your podcast to help women around the world in their seasons of life. And if you haven’t listened to the other podcasts that we’ve been on, we had very extended seasons of singleness ourselves. So. And when we got married, I was 32 and John was 43. And the Lord really taught us a lot during those years. And we’re very thankful for those single years and very thankful that the Lord brought us together. So we have a kind of a special heart for people in those extended years of singleness. And yeah, we just really want to commend this podcast to you and and this season to make the most of it. So.

Well, it’s a joy and it’s always an honor to have conversations like this that are meaningful with people that I respect. And I’m learning so much and I have to relearn so much as I go back and listen to previous episodes and realize I forgot so much of what what was shared in years past. But today’s topic is a little different than what we’ve covered in the past on the podcast. We have the episodes that you both have done before, have been on different relationship topics, and today’s probably one of the more sobering, heavy topics that we’ve ever done on the podcast. But it’s important. And my hope is that it’ll be comforting to the listeners. Anyone who has had this in their past, experiencing this in their present, know someone who’s dealing with this, that this will at least point them in the right direction to comfort and hope in Christ and allow them to move forward in a way that they can smile at the future if this is something that is holding them back. So John, did you have any thoughts you want to share?

Yeah. I mean, I guess we just want to recognize that the difficulties that that individuals have faced in, in a, in abusive situations are going to differ from from person to person, even though where they can be similarities there, there’s because, because we’re all individuals that there, there can be just really unique difficulties that that that each person faces. And so we, we really want to, to stress the fact that that what we’d share today, we don’t want to be or it can’t really be a be a catch all that we recognize it was it’s going to fall short. We’re like, it will fall short of what you’re needing. And, and so we’re going to have to generalize in some areas because we can’t really address everything. And so we just encourage anyone who has or is experiencing abuse to, to really to seek personal one-on-one council with a trusted biblical counselor and also to talk to a Christian friend or family member. And, and most important of all, we want to reinforce the fact that that the gospel is the answer to your deepest pain and hurt. And, and so if you’re Christian, just to recognize that God loves you with the very same love that he has for his son. And it’s no matter what someone has done or is doing to you, that love from God will never change. And then so if there’s anything that we want to to reinforce and to give people is, is gospel hope because that’s really the the ultimate answer for all of us and whatever we face.

Yeah, that’s, I’m glad we’re starting out on that note and that setting that tone and foundation for the talk today. And you know, we’re going to be talking about abuse, specifically sexual abuse. So can you guys share of all the kinds of sin out there? This is a particularly devastating sin when it’s when it’s done against a victim. So why? Why is this sin unique in that way and and cause such hurt?

So it’s really hard to know exactly why, but we have some thoughts about what might make it particularly devastating. And, and one thing to acknowledge too, is just how difficult it is to talk about and how personal and, and just private of a topic it is. And so that can be one thing that just makes it really hard to talk about. But so sexual abusers take one of the most private, personal aspects of your humanity and they use it, and they use you for their own twisted gratification. So sexual intimacy is designed by God to knit and a husband and wife together in a mutual relationship of love, vulnerability and trust in a context of commitment and not not any one of those things. Is there an abusive relationship? So sexual simile corrupts God’s intended purpose and then fills they both parties with guilt and shame, whether they recognize it or not. And even the abuser is is experiencing guilt and shame, but but quite often will have a seared conscience and and just as as really not recognizing, you know, what they’re doing, let alone what they’re doing to another person. But the reality is, is any illicit sex, even when it’s a mutual and consensual, fills both parties with guilt and shame. But when it’s abusive, it often leaves the the victim feeling dehumanized and humiliated and and broken. It leaves them feeling robbed of, of their dignity. And so then I think what can often and easily happen is because of the, the form the abuse take, the those feelings, those thoughts can, can easily bleed into other relationships, making it difficult for them to from trust relationships with other people, especially with members of the opposite sex. And it’s, it’s ironic, but but that people who have been abused, it often can, can especially on believers, but even in believers can, can it can lead to promiscuity. And so, you know, depending on the, the form of the, the abuse, that the abuse is taken and the nature of the relationship with the abuser, the time span over which abuse is taking place, that that all of these things can be compounded and it can even really be be a hindrance to one’s relationship with God. And so, you know, recognizing that and, and also recognizing, you know, that this is, is this is far more common than we realize. You know, a lot of the statistics say that that one in three women and one in four men have been sexually abused. And so this is we would be kidding ourselves to to say this not happened in within church context. We all have friends and family members who have suffered abuse and are still suffering, even even under abuse that’s in the distant past.

Yeah, I heard someone give the example of like, you know, whatever God is designed, the more beautiful it is, it can be twisted for greater evil. You know, like the mother child relationship, that’s beautiful, but when you see neglect, that’s horrible and evil. And so in this context, like sexual intimacy was something beautiful that God designed for intimacy between a husband and wife. And then when you see it twisted and perverted it, it is just even greater evil. But I appreciate, John, how you brought out that it’s has a lasting impact on somebody and also how it impacts other relationships in their life. And I think that’s part of the, the devastation it causes is, you know, not only maybe is someone have a distrust of God’s care for them in this way. If if he, you know, sovereign and, and this still happened to them hindering, like you said, relationships with members of the opposite sex. But also, you know, your trust is broken with people, especially as a lot of times this happens in a situation where there’s a trust, you know, there’s a power imbalance of someone who’s supposed to be, you know, an authority over them protecting them is misusing that. So it can break trust in all these relationships. And then even the impact that the person has on their, on themselves with shame and bearing that through life. So you can see why the sin is like it’s so far reaching and and just the ripple effect that it has going out.

So for those who have been the victim of abuse in their past, how do they know if it’s something they need to bring up and start working through that? Maybe they’re trying to ignore it or leave it behind them and just move forward in their life. But is it something they need to work through to tell someone to sign up for counseling? You know, really, if it, if the abuse that that you’ve experienced is controlling your, your thoughts and your views of yourself and your views of others, I think that that is a good sign that there’s still issues to be worked through. You know, if you’re consumed with with thoughts of, of, of what has happened to you and you see yourself through past abuse as though that that characterizes who you are, then it would be important to talk to somebody about it. Similarly, if if you know, whereas you know a certain amount, I think of mistrust after abuse is understandable, but if you find yourself just really, if there’s a barrier to to trusting others in particular, again, coming back to the shift of of trusting God, you know, would be I think beneficial for for you to talk to somebody. You know, again, again, a a biblical counselor and and a really differentiated says, yeah, it would be it not that biblical counselors, not a friend, but to talk to a biblical counselor, somebody who’s really trained specifically in dealing with these issues, but also just a loving Christian friend or family member. And just just being able to be open and and honest and and really loved by that person can really go a long way to to to to help bring healing. Just just knowing that another person knows who knows you and cares for you and loves you through that. Can I think we really go a long way to help you?

And just bringing it into the light, like sharing, you know, sometimes it just taking the time to get it off your chest out in the open and then allowing other people to help bear the burden with you. And that’s that’s the biblical thing. We were to bear one another’s burden. Someone who can encourage you, pray with you, remind you of truth when you need to be reminded. And that can, I think, just lessen the load that you’re bearing because I know it probably feels like a huge weight on someone if this has become their identity and everything, you know. So bringing it out in the open, having someone else help you work through it is really helpful.

Yeah, it’s just, it’s such a, it’s such a horrific thing that you don’t ever want to talk about it again. You know, like that’s very understandable. And so it’s very easy to think if I bury it deep enough, it’ll just go away. But unfortunately it doesn’t. And so I think sometimes bringing it up is one of the hardest things you’ll ever do. But in the long run and in the very, we have to think long game, it will bring so much healing. But yeah, it’s it’s so natural to want to bury it and forget about it and think I’m OK. But I think we mentioned later that, you know, you can think that even a relationship, a healthy relationship will just, like, fix all those things that you feel like are damaged. But that’s not the case. Only God can do that. So yeah, it’s just we understand that it’s extremely hard to go there again in your heart and mind and talk about it, but well worth the effort.

And also recognizing the fact that that even if you have sought counsel you have talked about in the past doesn’t mean necessarily that’s it’s all resolved. There might be circumstances, situations that that the trigger, you know, memories and and whatnot from the past that might need to be talked about again and you might need to, you know, might find yourself in things you’ve talked about. You know, it’s not counsel from many times that that you know, don’t ever feel that that it’s it’s wrong. OK, I’ve not talked about this in the past. It’s no if if this is still troubling you, then by all means, you know, talk to somebody who can really help you and and again point you to God’s word, point you to the gospel and just show love for you in Christ through that.

And some people say, you know, I’ve been to 27 counselors and nothing helped. But sometimes there’s just such a different approach when scriptures involved from a Christian counselor, I’m using the Bible, that you really could be surprised that there actually is hope that these people hadn’t offered you before. It’s also important for, for people to recognize that that sometimes someone who has suffered abuse, we’ll have feelings of guilt over, over what’s happened. And it’s important again, to to walk through that with somebody because sometimes it could be, you know, real guilt or imagined guilt. And the enemy is, we know, wants to, he’s our accuser and, and wants people paralyzed by, by feelings of guilt and, and, and unable to, to move past. So, so it’d be really important for somebody who can objectively talk to you and, and, and help you to sort through those things. And, and similarly, if there are any feelings of bitterness towards the, the, the person who has harmed you, it’s, it’s really vital to, to be able to give those feelings over to the Lord and so that, that you’re not really carrying your abuser around in your head, in your heart. And, and so to be able to, to, to, to look to the God of justice and to recognize that that his justice will be served. And you might not see in this life, but it will come and you can trust him.

But that being said, depending on the nature of the abuse, it, it might dealing with, it might mean evolving a pastor. I’m in a church for a church discipline situation. And it might mean involving the legal authorities. And you know, I, I, as difficult as, as, as that would be, I think it’s, it’s important for, you know, if, if you have suffered abuse at, at someone’s hand, specialist who’s been in a position of authority over you and specialist, there’s the legal issues involved for your processing and in your head and your heart to be able to, to, to do that. But but also in so doing you, you can also, you might be protecting somebody else. And again, these are things that are are very delicate and very difficult and and might take time. But just to really be be thinking about what the Lord again, seeking counsel, what the Lord would would have you do in in each case. Again, there’s there’s a lot of of of there’s a variety of of of issues. But but but but seeking what? What the Lord would have you do in involving authorities?

And then when you, if you bring in a counselor or a trusted friend, they can help walk with you through that because that those are going to be hard conversations to go to a pastor if it’s someone in your church or go to the authorities or whatever. So having someone who’s like, I will go with you to the police. And I appreciate that you brought up the point that it’s also a protection of others because from the study I’ve been doing, frequently a perpetrator. Has multiple victims and so by you bringing that crime to the proper authorities, you’re going to be protecting somebody else so you can that can be a motivation to just beyond your own struggles of helping others.

So when you talk about guilt, another emotion, I guess that’s what it’s called that people can experience when they’re sinned against is shame. And so people can deal with that in a variety of ways. Maybe it’s similar to how they deal with guilt when they’ve actually sinned. But what do you see are the wrong ways that people tend to deal with shame? And how does God’s Word, what’s the prescription that he gives or how we are to move forward and deal with these types of things?

Yeah, so you’re right. It shame is probably the biggest outcome of abuse. And it’s it’s not that simple like we make it sound so simple. It’s very complex. Like you said, there’s guilt, there’s false guilt. If this happened to you as a child, children naturally feel guilt for situations when there’s no guilt involved because they have an authority figure telling them things. And so it’s very complex. But some reactions are to isolate or to hide it or to let it define you. But yeah, shame can really keep you in some ungodly patterns and make you feel unable to move forward. And so I’m kind of assuming that we’re speaking to Christians here where you have the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of Christ and, and the power to move forward. So the thing that really can break this cycle of shame is acceptance. And ultimately, you have acceptance by the holy and loving God through the cleansing blood of Jesus. And in a very tangible way, the body of Christ can be a physical working out of that acceptance. And in an even more personal and intimate way, a godly spouse can model that gospel acceptance in a way that just melts away what’s left of the shame.

Now none of this happens overnight and it requires lots and lots of patience from all the parties involved and support for both the one healing and for the spouse. So the spouse or you know, potentially this is happening in a a not married yet, but with a serious relationship, but I’ll just refer to it as spouse. But the spouse would need to be aware that physical intimacy might be really difficult and that loving and abused spouse sometimes requires times when physical intimacy is just too painful. But just to recognize again for the husband to to be seeking to serve his wife and to love her through and that will go far and and beyond really the then the many other things he can do in marriage to help her to overcome that shame and and to to feel it. My my husband is this is how he’s seeking to serve me and and for her, her to begin to trust again. But it really has to be, you know, and I, I, I know of men where, where they’ve really taken this, this, this role. And it’s just really, you know, these, you know, godly men who’ve really been been used more than any other person to help the wife overcome what they’ve experienced because of the way the husband is is responded to his wife and her pain. To see love without any physical intimacy is so accepting of that. Like it just speaks so loudly to someone who has experienced someone whose appetite is only for sexual intimacy without the love. And to see a godly spouse loving them at their own cost is so powerful.

But outside of the marriage, you know, the ideal place for this kind of healing to take place is in a loving church body. You know your brothers and sisters and the Lord. They can have faith for you when you don’t have faith anymore, when yours is dim. They can show you God’s love for you when they love and forgive you. And you can see the power of the gospel working out in the church body. And it’s really powerful. I just want to read 2nd Corinthians 1 starting at verse 3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. For as we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.

And so, so recognizing the the the battle against shame is a battle of the mind. And so where we are to take every thought captive, informative of Christ, to be transformed by the rule of our minds. And and so in reminding ourselves of these truths and, and also having others in our lives who will remind us of the truths when we, when we forget them ourselves, can, can also really help someone to, to begin to heal and to see themselves in, in a new light as, as who they are in Christ.

And that segues nicely into the next question for those who feel like they’re tarnished in some way or now they have baggage and and maybe there’s people listening who maybe it’s not this in their past. Maybe they have something else that they feel like has ruined them and made them less desirable and some way to a future spouse. What are is there any like helpful guidance or how do you move to placing your identity in Christ and and not seeing yourself as some past event or some sin?

So I just want to kind of dovetail into that last thing, John said. And as like a segue into this, because they are really connected, but someone who has been abused has likely been really brainwashed to believe lots of lies about themselves and about their abuser and about their loved ones. So it’s even hard to tell where biblical conviction begins and where it ends and where false guilt is present and where self worth truly lies. So it’s a very slow process. But like he was saying little by little, as you replace the lies with truth, you start to believe it in your heart as the Holy Spirit works that in so so dealing a little bit more specifically now with this feelings of what your identity is and feeling like you have all this baggage and you feel tarnished.

It’s really easily, especially in our society to be defined by an experience, a trauma, abuse, something that you carry with you. And while it’s true that you can’t erase the past and we’re not saying pretend it didn’t happen, we believe that there’s hope in God and that God is a God of redemption, and he can not only heal your heart, but actually work it together for good. Which I know you might be in a place right now where you can’t even imagine that, but Scripture says that he can, and He does for those who love Him. And we have seen this time and time again where God has worked things together in such a beautiful way. So it’s tempting to be defined by your scars, even to kind of nurse them along into your identity, to identify yourself as a victim and indulge in self pity. Now, you have very good reasons to feel pity. And I just want to say that it’s helpful instead of pity to think about this idea of lamenting. So like I was saying, you have very good reasons to lament more than many of us do. And there’s a really big difference between lament and self pity, because self pity is focused on the problem and not on the solution. And so I think lament we see often in the Psalms, King David lamenting his situation and then turning to his hope in Christ. So I also just wanted to read Second Corinthians 47 here.

Before you do that, maybe I’ll just jump in because it’s having a segways with the psalms. You know, the the idea of of the the psalms of lament. There, there are are several in the scripts of where you can actually then turn to the Psalm and turn the Psalm of lament. You can personalize it and turn that Psalm into prayer. And so the idea that that you can now you know whatever you’re experiencing, life is a Psalm for that. And so that the idea of, of, of actually letting, letting quite often King David, but, but actually the other psalmist as well, but, but give voice to, to your, to your pain. And then and then letting, letting that Psalm as a personalizing and then praying that Psalm back to God. It’s, it’s a, it’s a huge way of actually really just pouring out your, your grief to your heavenly Father and, and recognizing again that that you are his adopted daughter, his adopted son, and, and, and he loves you with the very, again, the, the very same love that he has for a son. We need to be real with our feelings and, and our emotions and, and recognize that that sin and pain are power of living in a fallen world. And these are things that that also cause us to cry out for the new creation, the very creation’s groaning. And we groan as as we wait for the adoption, as as sons and daughters. And so we, we want to see that we want to see Christ return. We want to see an end of, of the wickedness that we see around us. We want to see an end and God’s justice reign and rule. And so we we cry out to God, trusting Him.

And he hates the sin too, you know, He’s more than you do, more than I do on my own sin or the sin against me, like God hates that. And, you know, will bring vengeance or punish his son for that if, you know, if you’re in Christ. But yeah.

Yeah. So if you’re feeling like you carry this around and it’s defining you, just pour it out to the Lord as a lament. And then, you know, answer your lament with truth from Scripture. So sometimes that’ll be, you know, like John was suggesting praying through the Psalms, which is great. And often David answers his own questions with truth or if it’s a question that can’t be answered, he says, but I will trust you. And so really that trust in God’s sovereignty that he didn’t lose control and that he is so loving. Those two things are really what we can, you know, the pillows that we can put our heads on at night when we cannot make sense of something horrific.

So I just want to read 2nd Corinthians 4 starting at verse 7. But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. We’re afflicted in every way, but not crushed, perplexed but not driven to despair, persecuted but not forsaken, struck down but not destroyed, always carrying in the body the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. For we who live are always being given over to the death for Jesus sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. So death is at work in us, but life in you. So I’m not, I’m just saying like we don’t discount, you know, like our, our cleanness and our humanity and our brokenness and the fact that this world has so much effect from the fall and from Satan. But you don’t have to stay there because Jesus has overcome the curse with his death and resurrection. And you can be redefined by that and he really can bring like new life to your situation.

Might be helpful perhaps if I just read a few verses from Psalm 22 is a Psalm of lament. So again we have many examples of of lament in the Scriptures are probably one that is was one of the more familiar psalms to many of us is Psalm 22 where David cries out my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me and from the words of my groaning. Oh my God, I cry by day, but you don’t answer and by night I find no rest. And and this is that this is something that that David experienced. And of course, we, we know that that ultimately, as our Lord cried this, cried this out from the cross at the moment of his of his greatest agony. This is when he felt the dereliction. This is something that again, when we, when we interpret the Psalms, we say, well, this happened to David and it ultimately points to Christ and then through Christ, we can now, we now apply this to ourselves as well. So it’s these are very real. You can, you can cry this out to God as you, you might feel forsaken, but recognize that Christ was forsaken for you.

And then in in Psalm 22, David goes on to remind himself, yet you are holy and thrown on the praises of Israel and your father’s trusted. They trusted and delivered them to you. They cried and they’re rescued and you they trusted. They’re not put to shame. And then it goes. And so this idea of, of the cry of lament, but then the, the, the coming vindication, which David experienced as points to Christ, how Christ experienced. And it’s the experience that that we have in Christ. And so by by taking this and personalizing it again you, you can again be honest with God, cry out to God if you’ve you, you feel forsaken, but recognize that that Christ was forsaken so that you’ll never be forsaken, and that that ultimately, as Christ was vindicated, you will be vindicated in Christ.

Powerful truth to remember and just I love how you’re talking about Christ bringing, making all things new too. And that’s what we’re longing for and we know that that fulfillment we taste the first fruits, but we know ultimately it’s coming. So anyone who is just battling this and it’s hard for them, you just hold on, hang on because this will be abolished forever, someday. The sin, the shame, the suffering. And so we can hang on because we know it’s coming.

So how can someone move forward in hope and trust with a future relationship and not project what happened into the past onto this new future situation? Maybe there’s some fear and trepidation dating or going into relationships. So any words of encouragement for how someone can move forward?

Yeah. So at the end of the day, to move forward and trust, you really have to place your trust in God because you really have no way of knowing that you will never have trust in a human broken again. But you can be certain that no matter what happens, you will never be forsaken by God and his love will never change. Once you’re aware that he really is your only hope and you have a healthy romantic relationship that doesn’t place undue expectations on someone to be God like, then that’s a good foundation. One very natural feeling is that marriage will fix your wounds, that everything will be OK, and that’s too much of A burden to bring into a relationship. Only God can do that. A marriage could never do that, and no human could ever do that for you. So taking that burden off of a potential relationship is one really good way to be ready.

That being said, marriage is a huge means of grace and can help you in your healing process. So I know that it can feel like you both just want to move forward and believe that your love will carry you beyond the scars. But what can happen is that in the aftermath of those honeymoon years, you realize that your spouse can’t be your Messiah. And very easily feelings of bitterness and resentment grow because on a subconscious level, you end up blaming them for the fact that you still hurt. So I think having that understanding on a heart level is probably the biggest way to be kind of ready to move forward into a future situation.

And I think it’s also AI think John already mentioned this, but a good indicator is also if you’re able to have healthy relationships in your life in your church body that you can see that you’ve worked through some of the trust difficulties, you know, with even other people of the same, the same sex in your life with other women. If you’re a woman with other men, if you’re men, have you been able to have a really good relationship with a Christian friend? But if you see, no, actually I have no friendship that lasts longer than two months, then you might think, you know what, then I probably shouldn’t expect that to just go away when I meet my Mr. Perfect or Miss Perfect. So I think having healthy relationships around you is another really good indicator.

And whether you know, married or single, you’ll need wisdom and counsel and navigating it and, and really so to bade the conversation in prayer and trusting the the Holy Spirit to work in in the heart of the person that you’re talking to, but recognizing as well that that you know this person, that that you care about so much and you’re really serious and desire to marry. This might be something that they have no categories for. I hope it’s something they have no, that they have no experience with and they they might not know what to say. And that doesn’t doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not an indication of judgement or rejection. And so it’s important for the person when in, in talking to somebody about these things, to actually be, to be, have grace and patience for the person’s response and, and to it might just be too much for them at the to process or painful to hear at the moment. You know, when you’re, you’re hearing about this person that, that you love and you’re hearing about how, what pain they’ve gone through, that’s, that can be extremely difficult. And so it’s, it’s important for for both the, the, the, the, the man and the woman to get counsel and support and in, in walking through it.

Now I’m trying to remember, we did an episode on pre engagement counseling. Was this one of the questions in that list or they talk about? We, yeah, we do encourage couples to, you know, we talked about, but it’s past sexual sin and, and sin in general. So there’s really no surprises. Meanwhile, I don’t know if there’s a question specifically about abuse, but that would certainly be important to add if it wasn’t on there.

Yeah, yeah. I can’t remember the questions frame but but yeah it does could probably be be brought in to include that.

Yeah, and that’s a plug for that episode. Anyone wants to go back and listen to it. And it the premise is excellent because the goal is to get some of these big questions on the table before engagement when the pressure is off, so you can work through these things and give the time necessary. So, yeah, a lot of people do premarital counseling, but all the expectation they’re planning the wedding and then, you know, some of these big talks happen and maybe there’s things that need to be, need to come up sooner.

So we’ve talked about, you know, just bearing one another’s burdens and being the body and and the church being a huge just place of help and refuge for someone dealing with this. But if you have, if you’re a friend of someone, do you have any any other thoughts? How? How do you help a friend work through this? How do you be that burden bearer with them? Any words of advice?

Well, if you are the friend of somebody going through this, then realize that you are a precious gift to them. You can be just such a balm to their heart and you can remind them of 2nd Corinthians 517. If anyone is in Christ, he’s a new creation. The old has passed away and the new has come. I think just I just encourage the friend to be very patient. Let your grieving friend work through this on their time frame and don’t take any lack of immediate openness or any kind of reactions personally because they’re going through so much. And it’s funny to say this because it’s exactly what we’re saying about the abuse version. But your identity is in Christ as well. And so if you can just be so strong in the Lord, knowing that you are accepted in him and, and you want to just like glorify him, then that will really give you kind of the, the patience and the love that you need to just ride the waves with your friend kind of. And it may take months or even years to work through and just never be bashful about assuring them of your love for them of far more than that of the love that God has for them.

So there may be times when your friend is struggling with shame or is holding on to a difficulty and trusting that God is good and loving and you can come alongside and carry your friend with your faith for a time. Galatians 62 says bear one another’s burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ, which there is the law of love. So it can be a very heavy burden to bear, like you were saying, Christi, but cling to Jesus because he can bear that burden for you. And if you have a spouse or a godly family member, you can just weep with them. You don’t have to tell them details of what your friend has gone through, but you can just weep with them about this hard thing that that you heard from your friend. And so just trust in God’s wisdom and love and encourage your friend to trust in those same things for their life, and remind them that whatever someone has done to them, God loves them with the same love that He had for His Son, and that He’s working all things out for their good and His glory. So, and we’ve said that before a couple times, but that’s like it’s embarrassing again.

But you know, also just, I think if your friend, you know, comes to you and, and wants to talk to you about the, about these things, you know, it can feel overwhelming. You can feel like I don’t know what to do. I don’t have to say and remember, you don’t need to say anything and at least immediately, it’s best. Sometimes you just need to listen. You know, Job’s friends did a really good job for the first little bit to open their mouths, but but just to really, you know, listen and, and just be there and, and show love for them with, with whatever they’re sharing with you.

But also recognizing that, you know, if and when the time does come, you know, to say something you can really trust. You know, Paul says in Ephesians 210 that we are God’s workmanship in Christ Jesus for the good works he’s prepared in advance for us to walk in. And so, you know, whatever it is, you know, you know that somebody comes to you with, remember, God’s not surprised by it. This is one of the good works he’s prepared for you and that that you can be the, the, the used of God in the situation because it’s ultimately Christ is doing it in and through you.

And so I, I think it’s also helpful to, to when we frame our own experiences, you know, because again, living in this, in this, in this fallen world means suffering that you don’t necessarily have to have experienced specifically what somebody has experienced because because the comfort you give is not yours. So Second Corinthians 1-3 and four, blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all of our affliction so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. So God comforts us in all of our affliction so that we can comfort those in anything. And again, the comfort that that we’re giving, it’s not our comfort, it’s God’s comfort that we’ve received super, super abundantly. And so we’re just, we’re, we’re giving others the, the overflow of that comfort we received from God. And so we can trust again for for God’s wisdom that that He will give us in that situation to know by his grace when to say something and what to say, and when to say nothing, and just to be there.

Yeah, and just a reassuring thought for the friend is that if this person is the Lords, then he is shaping them, He is sanctifying them. He has save them and he’s not going to stop sanctifying them. And it’s not entirely up to you because you can really wear that very heavy burden if you feel like you need to bring healing to this friend. Only God can do that to their heart. And you are, Lord willing, going to be used by him. But there might be days when you feel like you said the wrong thing and and feel the weight of your friend’s misery now on your shoulders. But yeah, just remember, like they are the Lords and he shapes hearts. God’s word shapes people and changes them. We don’t. So as you know, the Lord allows you serve up the word of God to your friend and offer hope. But by all means, remember that it’s not up to you to rescue and save and.

Yeah, and it’s a good reminder to that our own walk with Christ is so important, not just for us, but for the people around us and how, like we impact the whole church. So like being filled with the Spirit, being vigilant to stay in the Word and in prayer, and being an easy instrument for God to use for it to encourage someone is so important. And John, you said something helpful earlier about just listening and that’s one of the things that I, when I was reading about this, so that people found most helpful is just listening to them, letting, letting them share and then also believing them. I think that was one of the statistics that that I was reading about is that this type of abuse is actually under reported because people are so ashamed of it and don’t want to bring it up. So if someone actually shares it, it’s a pretty high likelihood that yes, this is true and take them at their word and, and listen to them and then reassure them that it’s not their fault. You know, I think there’s like we talked about the false guilt can be a huge thing. But you know, of course, we’re all sinners. We all have sinned mixed in with anything like this. And so we need to confess that, but that it’s not their fault and that they’re not crazy to have this affect them the way it does. Like we’ve talked about, God designed this to be powerful to touch our emotions, our soul, everything. And so when it’s misused, the emotional devastation is huge. So like just encouraging them that this is normal to feel the weight of this and but you don’t have to stay there. You know, there will be scars, but it doesn’t go away. You know, just like you know, the, the whole like saying, you know, time heals all wounds is not necessarily true. There will be scars that remain, but the weight of it on your heart and soul can be lifted and you can be fruitful and God can use you to be a blessing to others and help others.

Any resources? I know we’re just this is the tip of the iceberg on this topic. And so if someone just wants needs more help, any anything you would recommend to them?

Yes. So there’s a couple books here that I’ve had recommended to me that I haven’t actually read, but one is called Treasure in the Ashes by Maria Brookings and Sue Nicewander. It’s very heavy reading. So it’s really good if you could work through it with like a mentor type friend or a counselor. One that we’ve mentioned this topic quite a few times this evening, but Trusting God by Jerry Bridges, which it’s just kind of an all around great book for anybody I know John and I have both really benefited from that book. It walks through, you know, how can you trust God when he was in control when bad things were happening to me? And how do you make sense of all that? A book called God’s Battle Plan for the Mind by David Saxton, a book called Making All Things New by David Pallison, and then another really good just kind of manual for lots of things is Instruments in the Redeemer’s Hands by Paul, David Tripp, which is also another great book. This last one’s also really good resource for, for those that want to help other people.

One thing that we did not, we’d, we’d plan on talking about, we didn’t really talk directly about, about God’s sovereignty. And maybe we could, I don’t know where you want to fit that in, but it might be good to touch on. You know, the idea of, of broken trust, again, can really easily spill over into a relationship with God. And, and somebody who has experienced abuse can sometimes have a hard time reconciling God’s sovereignty with the, the abuse that they’ve suffered. And, and you know, there’s no easy answer to that. It’s it’s obviously a huge theological question, but we do recognize that that God is sovereign and we recognize that that he does work all things together for his glory and our good. And and so one thing that I think to, to recognize and again, to see anything you’ve suffered through the lens of the cross and to recognize that that God took really the the most horrific thing that has ever happened in in the history of creation in man attempting to kill God. But this was God’s plan and God’s purpose. And through that he worked out redemption for his bride. And so even though we we don’t understand necessarily what what God is doing, recognize that he is sovereign and he is loving and he is wise and, and whatever a sinful human being has done to you, it’s not God’s fault. God did not do that to you. But God is in the the business of redemption and he will redeem that you know, for for years.

One of my favorite verses, Romans 828 and it right. All things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to his purpose. And another one of my favorite verses was Romans 829. For we have been predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first born among many brothers. But what I fail to recognize that there’s a conjunction there. Those two verses are meant to go together. And so God’s definition of working all things together for good is our conformity to the image of Christ which we’ve been predestined to be. So God is working even the horrible things that that have been afflicted upon you to make you more like Jesus. And we we don’t know and see exactly the mystery of his Providence, how he’s doing that. We recognize that he does do that. And, and we recognize that one of the ways that, that that we are conformed to the image of Jesus is, is by being treated like Jesus was treated and by suffering abuse at the hands of, of sinful people. And while that is not in itself, that is, it is horrific and wicked and shameful. God will use that in the life of his son, his daughter, to cause him to grow Christ’s likeness. And so that’s, that’s how you can grow in, in trusting God, even though he might not see it. That’s true. He sees it. His promises are there that he will redeem this. He will work even this out for, for his glory and your good in, in, in his life. And so you can trust him and really, really, again, this is what that’s the book Trust in God by Jerry Bridges. That’s really the, the the foundation of of that book is really trusting him that he is sovereign, he is loving, he is wise. And so you can trust him even in the most painful experiences of your life.

Would you pray for us, John, as we, as we wind this talk down?

Our gracious Lord and Heavenly Father, we praise you, Lord, for your mercies that are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness. O Lord. Lord, may we all of us interpret our lives through the gospel. May you help each one. We we want to pray specifically for for those who have suffered abuse or who are suffering abuse presently. May you help each one to see the great love that that you have for them in Christ, that you love them so much that you sent your Son to die for their sins, not for the nameless, faceless mass of humanity, but for them. Lord Jesus, you died for your bride. And so, Lord, I pray that that you would help each one to see the depths of your love, Heavenly Father, that you crushed your Son so that we could be adopted sons and daughters. And so I pray for those who are hurting right now. And even as as this conversation has has maybe brought up things and, and opened old wounds. I, I pray, Lord, that the healing balm of the gospel would bring hope and comfort and peace and healing. That the very things that the enemy sought to use to destroy them would be used to, to draw them to your love. Lord God, we pray that you would give wisdom to to friends and counselors, Lord, who are wondering how they can support and how they can care for friends who are experiencing this. And, and we we pray that that you would cause the the church to be a place where where healing and hope can be found. We pray for pastors who are that they would have eyes that are open to to recognize the reality of abuse and Lord to be intentional in bringing your word and proclaiming your word and Holy Spirit that you would bring your word to bear in hearts again for for healing and hope in Christ in whose name we pray, Amen. Amen.