EP 58

Christi: Welcome to the smiling at the future podcast. My name is Christi Rose and this is my pursuit to glean practical wisdom on femininity, homemaking, finances, relationships, and singleness from the God-fearing men and women in my life. Hope you enjoy this journey with me as we learn to smile at the future.

Christi: Hey, everyone, yes, Yes, this is another episode on dating, but it’s not just any episode on dating. It’s kind of a dream come true for me to meet and interview Rick and Kim Holland. Today on the podcast, some of you already know this wonderful couple, but for those who are not familiar with them, Rick was the pastor of Crossroads, the college group at Grace Community Church for many years and is well known for some of his dating series that he preached there 20 years ago. I’ve the link for that series in the show notes for this episode. So please take a listen to that. If you have the time Rick and Kim. Love the Lord, his word, the church and discipleship. So with that introduction, here is our conversation.

Christi: Very excited to have this time with you, both Rick and Kim. And even though I didn’t have the opportunity to be directly blessed by your ministry when you both were at Grace Community Church, I’ve personally witnessed the effects of your ministry on so many who haven’t earned ministered to me, but Rick, you’re dating series that you preached over 20 years ago, lives in infamy and is still circulating the sermon block around Grace Community Church. I always run into people that talk about it and have heard it even from other churches. So I loved your approach, the wisdom that you shared and I’m excited to be talking about this topic with you both today. But before we go into our questions, can you both share where the Lord has you in life and Ministry?

Rick: Sure, thank you, Christi. Those are very kind words and very humbling. Had I known that that series was going to get as much traction when I preached it, I probably would have been way more intentional, but the Lord’s used it in some really unexpected way. So thank you very much.

Rick: Yeah, Kim and I are in Kansas City. We’ve been here 11 years. I left Grace Church, wanted to be a senior pastor and came back to Mission Road Bible Church and could not have imagined a better fit, a sweeter Church body and a more really amazing opportunity that the Lord has given to both of us. And so we have three sons and maybe you can update a little bit on our boys.

Kim: Okay. Our boys are 26, 24 and 22, Luke, John, Mark and no Matthew. Nope. And they’re out of order and they’re out of work. Yes. And they we required all of them to listen to the dating series, as well before they started. Mom required that. Dad did. And yes, our oldest Luke, just got married about a month ago and so now we have a daughter-in-law Annie in addition to John’s wife Myanna and they’ve been married for three years and we have our first grandchild through them, Charlie, who is 17 months now and expecting number 2 in January. So we’re excited and Mark is here in Kansas City with us going to Seminary here.

Christi: Wonderful, that’s a fun season when you get to the grandkids phase.

Christi: Well, the questions I have for you are all on dating and relationships, which is kind of confusing because the Bible is not prescriptive in this area. It seems to be a gray area but definitely biblical principles that can be applied for sure. And I’m excited to talk about those with you. So just launched into the first question here. How do I weigh biblical qualifications versus maybe the Christian ideal in choosing who to date and marry?

Rick: Yeah, that’s that’s a complicated and a simple question at the same time. You know, we are seeing an absolute reformatting of the entire idea of relationships men and women men and men women and women, you know, Victorianism has officially died. And we are in A Brave New World as as so many Karl Truman, one has been riding on this.

Rick: So the Bible, I think gives very clear answers to the question. You’re asking the right the right way to Christi about character. But the first thing we have to do, I think is go back and say, what is the definition of, who you’re to be, and who you’re defined. And for Christians, it has to be what God outlines as a godly man and a Godly woman which seems overly simplified. But I think people are chasing dreams from the Hallmark Channel, to sitcoms, to romantic comedies everywhere to find their quote unquote, perfect ideal.

Rick: I mean, our passion has been forever just to encourage young men and young women to is pretty simple to study the scriptures to understand the right kind of man and woman to be and after you understand that it kind of sets the The lawn, the kind of person you would want to find or the kind of person you want to date and those have specific nuances, obviously men on the men and women side.

Kim: So, well, as far as the Christian ideal, that can be defined in different ways, depending on who you are, and what your background is, what your church is, who people you respect, your peers and then even, you know, implications that have been drawn from Biblical local standards but are more specific or preferential. So, you need to be careful and not setting the standards anywhere that is outside of what is specific in God’s word.

Rick: It kind of opens up the an interesting question too. I’m just kind of playing with your question a little bit because there’s the character issues that you want to look for in a godly man, and a Godly woman, but I think any of us we don’t live in India. Your parents choose your, your spouse or your your first date. And so, there are preference issues that are not anti or unbiblical and to like someone who likes the same kind of things that you do or to, I mean, I was attracted to Kim, I thought she was the prettiest girl, I knew, but not everyone thought that, or they would have tried to date her as well. So the, the preference issue is an important issue and it’s not unbiblical or it’s fable cool. But that has to kind of ski in the wake of character in godliness, and I think those two are conflated and Confused often without discipleship instruction, good parenting and pastoring to get people to look for the right, the right kind of things and your questions. So well framed in, look at the character as defined by God’s word.

Christi: Yeah. No, that’s very very helpful. And what a theme that comes up regularly on this podcast is the trajectory of somebody’s life. So, you’re not looking for these things. These qualities and Perfection by any means, but are they headed in the right direction? Are they growing and showing Grace? Because we’re all in that progress. We’re all a work in progress, right?

Kim: It helps us to acknowledge we’re a work in progress too and to just be humble and not be expecting more from others than is true of ourselves.

Rick: So glad you didn’t judge me on who I was and who I might could be, honey or I would, I would have never had a chance with you. So,

Christi: So do you think that women in particular, and most of my listeners are single Christian women? Do you feel like there is a checklist that many women have that you’ve run into that are maybe just too picky. I guess what are areas that you see, we put a high premium on that probably really don’t matter much in the long run.

Kim: Yeah, there’s a lot of that. And I was guilty of that too when I was single and I don’t know. If you know, but we were a little bit older when we got married, I was 28 and Rick was 31. And so, yeah, I had my list that the Lord helped me refined but it can be anything from really mundane little things to bigger things. Like little things like, I don’t know, are they, do? They have a good sense of humor? Are they smart? You know, are they athletic? Are they good looking? Are they tall enough?

Rick: I’m easy. I’m glad that you have tall dark and handsome because I am short blondish and and not handsome. So,

Kim: And I said, well, I’m glad of those one on her and might be just a couple of inches taller than Rick. So I don’t remember that ever being on my list but or on mine to marry a taller. So, okay. But then I can also be other things like a certain standard of living, they can career of Yashin. Yeah that that have a vocation all set in place or a certain kind of vocation. I mean some girls might really want to marry somebody in Ministry or some some gals of my primary doctor, lawyer. Whatever is just important to remember that whatever they’re doing when you marry them, they might not always be doing. So it’s more important to look at the of the man rather than what he his vocation is at that time or what it could be. So yeah, and another thing that people look at I think is wanting to have all the same interests and hobbies and I know that’s one thing about us that was very different that you know, if we had ripped off and says, if we had tried to look online, we never would have been. You would have never found each other with an algorithm. In fact we would it was going to run from this person. So,

Rick: So, yeah, it’s an interesting question. Because lists sometimes get a bad rap lists are not a bad idea. If the list is biblically defined, you know, high moral standing, Godly character, pursues the word, understands discipleship. I mean, there’s a list of things that you can have, but you said it so well, a minute ago, this is you’re looking for trajectory and and progress not Perfection. So I think that having ideals is okay. It’s Where do you get the definition of those lists and those ideals from?

Kim: And I think me personally and what I talked to a single gals about is I whittled it down to just two, just like to summary, one is a man who fears the Lord and to the second one is a man that I can follow, because I truly believe that submission. My submission is that is the greatest gift that I could give a mean.

Christi: Wow, that is so helpful to have it. So simplified like that. Thank you, Kim. Beautifully said. So, the next question here, what are false expectations or views of marriage that you see among Christian Singles today?

Rick: Well, I think, most people believe that the answer to discontentment and the answer to loneliness is marriage. And what I found in the hundreds, literally hundreds of weddings that I’ve done and marriages that, we’ve been involved with and premarital counseling that we’ve done is that lonely single people, become lonely, married people and discontented single men. And women are discontented me rated men and women because God didn’t design for that marriage relationship to be the solution to that. He’s the only solution.

Rick: Now once he’s the solution at the, the wonderful aim and goal and love of each of your lives. What I’m so content in my marriage and and so happy and I’m not lonely, all of that’s okay. But no one, no one person can ever take the place that the Lord intends himself to be in the life of a believer. So you can see that’s a you got to be careful that you’re not looking to that as the as the solution to your unhappiness, only. He is.

Christi: Yeah, Kim, do you have any additional thoughts on that? May be what women look for to fulfill them in marriage.

Kim: Yeah, I think you know, I would, I would agree with everything he said, of course, sometimes there’s a temptation to view marriage. Only parts of marriage as what marriage is. Is like this companionship, you know, having a best friend, having someone, you know, to have that physical intimacy with and just isolating certain parts of biblical marriage and making it all of what marriage should be and what God intended it to be. When in reality, there are different. There are several purposes and parts of God’s design for marriage that he intended that people leave out.

Kim: And I mean, one of and practically that we see a lot is having children, and I know some people really want to have children, and God doesn’t choose to give them, but they’re even in the church. Now, there are couples that are waiting a long time to have children or, you know, if at all and that is one of God’s purposes for marriage.

Christi: I heard someone say once that the grass is not always greener on the other side, it’s just you have to mow in different places. And so really, I think some women like you said, Kim kind of focus in on some of the specific blessings of marriage but not have the complete picture of the reality of it and it comes with Joys and hardships just like any other season of life. So, yeah, contentment and enjoying the season you’re in is gonna gonna help a lot in your married life too, if you Master that as a single.

Christi: What is what, what is a more accurate, biblical view of marriage? And how does that influence who we choose to date and marry just rule for.

Rick: Not on that. This is the question kind of behind your question. I think that we need to take as a pastor. I think we need to take a greater ownership of shepherding these ideas and these ideals from the pulpit, from discipleship, from the you, ‘The Ministry, the single’s ministry, the college Ministry and teach about these things and to teach on these things, especially they have a robust honestly, a robust Ministry in the Church of training parents to be talking about these things and putting these ideals in front of their children. Not only in the instruction but we’re very aware, we were always very aware that our boys were going to learn what marriage looks like by watching us, that’s a cooling real. You know, right or wrong, good or bad and some good examples and I know many bad examples, they were going to, they were going to either try to better their view of marriage based on what they had seen or imitate what they had seen in us.

Rick: So I think that for the church and for parents to have a man just a greater passion and intentional deliberation about instruction and modeling and discussion and talking about these things. Creates a framework. We’re losing a generation by just letting again the Hallmark Channel. Raise our understanding of romance, instead of the church and parents. So biblical instruction, biblical modeling is from the church and from parents and the intentionality of that cannot be overstated and it has to be constantly generated and fostered or they’ll look, the younger generation will look to somewhere else to create their ideas and ideals.

Christi: Yeah. I couldn’t agree with you more and the world through entertainment is doing that. That is their emphasis is on romance and so that is where everyone is getting their information. So yeah, couldn’t agree with you more Kim. Did you have anything you want to share?

Kim: Well, when I think of the biblical view of marriage, I think mostly about that. It’s supposed to reflect Christ and his love for the church and in turn the churches, loving and following Christ. So that’s what marriage is to be a picture of that. What do you call it a reciprocal?

Rick: Yeah, in fact, one of the things I like to say in a wedding and in our Premier all his marriage and the gospel occupy, the only reciprocating analogous relationship in the New Testament. What I mean by that is in Ephesians 5:22 to 33, it’s wonderfully, wonderfully confusing. And when Paul’s says, well, the the guy sport, illustrates marriage and marriage, illustrates the gospel, and he keeps bouncing back and forth. So that by the end of that paragraph, he says, well, I’m talking about Christ and the church, nevertheless, let a man and woman.

Rick: So they actually illustrate one, another, the greater understanding of the gospel and the more Orthodox and biblical understanding of the Gospel. A young man, a young woman who has? I think that gives them by God’s design their Paradigm of instruction on on marriage. And as you look in the mirrors and you grow a marriage and you see, you know, the extensions of forgiveness and mercy and Grace in growth, that also instructs the world on how the gospel works by, how a man and a woman, you know, relate to one another and and Lynn headship and in submission. And those are those are two nasty words in our culture has shipped in submission because head chef is usually in the kind of me to movement and the wrongful Ascension that Have many men have taken to be, you know, just large and in charge is terrible, but then that who would want to follow a man like that.

Rick: And yet in almost three decades of marriage, I have never one time. Asked my wife to submit to me. She’s just graciously desired to say fault. Now, we’ve had interesting moments, where I say, I think we should go this way. She says, I think we should go that way and then this way, that way and she’s a little cable God’s going to hold you accountable to this decision. I’m just going to follow you and I will you bring God into this. That’s yeah, yeah, it’s powerful.

Christi: And the idea of going into a marriage, not for what you can get, but what you can give and that servant heart going into marriage. And I think that’s something that singles don’t understand or think about and if they’re coming from a place of maybe they’ve used their single years in a selfish way and just self-serving. And so they kind of look at relationships as what can that give back to me? Rather than how can I serve and give to this other person.

Rick: That is so well, stated not only as a principal Christi, but also an experience. And I mean, this is, we can go down this road if you want to. So many people are waiting the longer you. Wait to get married. I think the more mm Brad. Those those ideas become in your mind. And selfishness really takes root and as harder to uproot when you postpone marriage for so long. I’m not I don’t think we should get 13 and 14 year olds married. Like they happened in the scriptures, but postponement does have its own unique set of circumstances and consequences.

Christi: Yeah. And that segues nicely into the next question of. Why do you think people singles are waiting longer to date and marry? And I know there’s probably one answer here. It’s not a quick fix, but I’m just curious. What your thoughts are on that.

Rick: Yeah, lot of reasons, but selfishness I think selfishness is from one of the main ones and that I mean, that kind of covers what we’ve already talked about a little bit because of what they’re looking for instead of who God wants them to be.

Kim: But then I mean just simplistically. Men aren’t asking and sometimes they’re asking but women are saying no. No, for whatever reason, there’s also another side of it besides just like the human, what? We see here happening in relationships and the lack of relationships with that. There’s definitely a trend there, waiting longer or they’re just not getting married at all. We have a huge singles group in our church.

Kim: Part of it we have to acknowledge, I think, is this is what God’s plan is for this time in Paris. And in the church and his reasons, we don’t know, but that might be, you know, so that singles can just focus more on distractedly on what God has for them in the church and in Ministry and in their Devotion to the Lord. Then we we’ve seen some do that.

Rick: Another, this goes back to ecclesiology as well. I think the church in general needs to do a better job of caring for and shepherding singles to think better about marriage and better about. Can I say it that the church should probably be a really Sanctified matchmaking place?

Rick: Several years ago, I wrote a very critical chapter about when the dating websites were just coming out and they I probably would have just that chapter now because I’m not as a, I think is against it as I used to be, if it’s used wisely and rightly, but we’ve actually don’t get too far down this row but we’ve actually gotten several churches together a couple. Times a year. We have a conference at our church for singles, and we’re not shy about the fact that we want to get to know singles to because some some of these precious single men and women in these churches, smaller churches. There is no one in their Church to look to or look for us. So we have a Consortium of churches that we have a conference, a couple times a year. They get together. We can just get to know each other with the same theological umbrella and at least there’s a an opportunity. We’ve seen a few marriages actually come out. I just think we need to be more intentional as a church of helping people get together.

Christi: Yeah, I yeah, I couldn’t agree more and especially in large churches. You know, I’m Grace Community Church so we have I’ve heard of that. I don’t even know how many I don’t know how many members now. Probably 8 to 10,000 something around there. There’s no way to know who’s who and just to get to know everyone so it really helps if you can have people pointing when the right direction or say, hey, I know this person there, in my Bible study, I can bet their character and, you know, I think it helps more if they tell the guys that and point them in the right direction of the gal, amen.

Rick: Amen. Yeah, yeah. It’s not always helpful to let the girls know this would be a good guy for you because of what can she really do about it?

Christi: Yes, yeah. And more than likely, if she knows his name, she’s already considered that. Kim. You said something so beautifully and I want to sir Circle back to how you talked about God’s sovereignty in this because I think, especially for women. It’s easy to kind of bemoan our singleness. Why aren’t the guys asking, you know, those types of questions and place a lot of blame on different things? That could be. Yes, there’s probably some issues there that maybe they things, that could be fixed and done better but ultimately, God Sovereign over all of that too. And so it doesn’t it only promotes bitterness, if Fixates for the women anyway to fixate on the problems. Yes. If there’s something that you need to shore up in your own life and change that’s where discipleship is so key. But yeah just I don’t know for myself it’s helped a lot to rest in God’s sovereignty and it takes away the need to feel like I need to try and control people or situations or fix things or yeah. God is able to work all that out.

Kim: And I think that’s one of the main things I like to encourage single ladies with is don’t feel like you need to do something to make this happen. Just let God do it because when we’re focusing on what we’re doing and not doing or what other people are doing or not doing that only leads to despair. But we focus on what God is doing. There’s Hope in that hope in him what he is doing. What he’s doing that we don’t know about or see and also like you said what he Wants to do in US.

Christi: Yeah. Turn all those feelings and maybe frustrations into prayer. I think is, is a good key for women, but our next question, kind of hits on men. Initiating. So keep in mind, this is a mostly female audience, but what does it look like practically to let men initiate a relationship.

Rick: It looks different now than it did when we were dating and even probably 20 years before that is changing so much. Much, but I’m going to toss this one to my to the female.

Kim: It’s hard social media and texting that kind of adds a new twist to things that it’s a little hard to navigate, I think sometimes, but I would say, for the most part is just letting the man call First, letting the man text first, letting the man asked you out letting him communicate intentions about a relationship first. Just kind of waiting and not trying to drive, not trying to manipulate or drive relationships in a certain way. But just, I think trying to treat everyone the same especially when you’re talking about single women and and single men, just treating them all as your brothers in Christ and obviously not flirting or anything like that to manipulate, but just focusing on your relationship with the Lord. And how you can encourage your brothers in Christ.

Christi: So good. And I think this is a specific area that women can struggle with partiality is only talking to or communicating with the guys, they have an interest in and then being concerned that well if I talk to so. And so they’re going to think I’m interested and I don’t want to communicate that to them and I’ve been guilty of this as well but I love how you said treat everyone the same because then there’s no question about your intentions that they see you interacting with. We wanted a friendly christ-like sisterly manner.

Kim: Yes. And I like to just say a real man is going to initiate when he’s not going to be insecure and you know be judging. Oh he talked to that guy or whatever that means, you know, that I don’t have a chance but he’s going to be confident and God and the desire that he has to spend time with you. So don’t feel like you need to orchestrate all that, but just trust God to work in the heart of a man.

Rick: And now this is a largely female audience but if it was largely male I would I would have a few size 8 in the back side of their motivation and just say come on you know you need you need to initiate as some level and and you know what sucks somewhere somehow the church needs to Shepherd as people on how to date that everyday is not an engagement that you can you can have copy and go to dinner with one-on-one or as a group without picking out colors for the for the wedding and both sides need to?

Rick: I don’t know, I think people we are a little bit dealing with the generation that was raised on the unfortunate. I kissed Eddie goodbye idea where you have everything figured out before you ask a girl out the first time and that doesn’t allow people the freedom to get to know one another, the freedom to grow as a brother and sister in Christ before you grow into anything else. The Expectations that you have to figure everything out. So fast puts really an unfair pressure on on the budding of a brother-sister relationship out of which a romance should and could grow.

Christi: Yeah. And that takes everyone in the church deciding to cultivate that culture not gossip about if they see someone sitting with someone or, you know, treating it in a normal natural way, and not shining the spotlight Like to brightly on it, I agree.

Rick: This is the scales back to pastors and elders and leaders in the church, helping people not develop an unhealthy culture of men and women getting to know each other.

Christi: Yeah. And I understand there’s a certain level of excitement, you know, if you see someone with someone, you’re like, oh praise the Lord, but let it play out on its own and yeah, you can we can all help in that process.

Christi: So contentment. In any life season as we’ve already spoken to, it’s a valuable character quality to learn. So, what encouragement can you offer the Single Ladies, listening who are struggling to find contentment in this season?

Kim: Well, first of all, I just would say that none of us are to base our identity on our relationship with any other person and especially not with a man or The lack of a man, our identity is not found in that it’s found in Christ and his love for us, whether a man loves us or not.

Kim: Psalm 146, verses, 3 through 5 says, do not trust in princes in Mortal man in whom. There is no salvation, his Spirit departs, he returns to the Earth in that very day, his thoughts perish. How blessed is he? Whose help is the god of Jacob, whose hope is in the Lord, his God. So, if you’re looking Looking for all your desires and needs for companionship and fulfillment to be met in a man, you’ll be disappointed. Proverbs 14:12 says, hope deferred makes the heart sick. So what if we’re hoping in the wrong thing? Or in the wrong person, we will be sick, will be heartsick and despair. So our hope should be in the Lord who loves us, who chose us, who redeemed us? And he will never disappoint.

Kim: And as women, whether we’re married or not, we can easily fall into a selfish trap of looking for what we can get out of a relationship. And we talked about this earlier a little bit rather than how we can serve others. I think just one practical way to help with contentment as a single woman is to spend time with others who will help you in your contentment rather than drag you down and like specifically sometimes with single gals. I know this was my experience. The conversation can really easily be reduced to focusing on crushes. Speculations about, you know, whether that guy’s going to call or what did you mean when you said that, or when you looked at me that way and just focusing on the desire for relationships. So, just try to surround yourself with people who are going to help you focus on the Lord and Devotion to him.

Kim: I also think of Philippians 4:10. Where Paul says, I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. So it’s a learned thing. It takes practice, right? And really, I think Rick mentioned this earlier disposition of contentment and gratitude by definition is not dependent on circumstances. So discontent singles will be discontent. Married people. It doesn’t change when you say I do. And then really, I mean, even when you get married. Read. There’s something else that you can want. It’s a child or a nice house or to live in a certain place. The list goes on.

Kim: I know a lot of thing goals. Christian singles are familiar with First Corinthians 7. Where Paul says that singleness is the gift and for some people at the temporary gift for some people, it’s a lifelong gift. But while you have that gift, you can have undistracted Devotion to the Lord. So You can be undistracted then. I just would encourage you to not be distracted by the desire to be married. Be devoted to the Lord and serving him.

Christi: That was beautiful.

Rick: Thank you. You said something. That’s so important to remember. We’ve kind of alluded to this earlier and that is the person who walks down the aisle. The girl, the person who is wasted the NFL, the groom, the bride and the groom are the exact same people. People walking out of the church that they were walking into the church except they made a promise, that’s the only difference and so I think it’s important to remember that marriage will amplify and expose who you are. It won’t change that.

Rick: So with regard to contentment, contentment contentment only comes lasting true. Genuine contentment is being satisfied with the Savior and if you’re satisfied with him, marriage is incredible and you because you especially if you find someone Seeking him alongside you. But if you’re not satisfied with Christ, as a single man or woman, marriage is not going to fill the void. That only Christ has. Now I want to be careful, we have very happy unbelievers who are married, but getting the full Grace of life, that God intends in marriage is so attached to being content in Christ.

Christi: Wow, that was such a good reminder for everyone, listening, no matter what season that. You’re in just to Christ is what will bring contentment, and peace, and joy and fill that void. I was listening to one of your previous messages Rick at Crossroads today and you said something in there that I just really appreciated. You said that, the closer you will get to somebody else. The more aware of their sin, you’ll become. But the closer to Christ, he has no sin. Never be exposed to send, you can only be exposed to his Holiness and become more like him.

Christi: So I thought that was a beautiful way of explaining that well truly an honor to have this hour with you both and so thankful for your graciousness and letting me ask these difficult questions. But so many Pearls of Wisdom that you shared and I can’t wait to share this conversation with others. So thank you from the bottom of my heart. You’re saying, yes and for sitting down and having this conversation with me.

Rick: Thank you. It’s great to chat with you and to get to know you a little bit. And we’ll definitely pray for God’s blessing of what you’re doing with these podcasts. Thanks to this podcast. There are so few people giving biblically, align Council, and just so grateful for what you’re doing and the extension of just pray that it the Lord uses it all the more.

Kim: Thank you. And really, I just want to say one more thing, you are providing. Example of what we were talking about and using your singleness as a gift to others and have ended undistracted devotion.

Christi: Amen.